563: What If College Doesn’t Have to Cost What You Think?

Facebook

Google

Twitter

Podcast: Download

For those of us with kids, summer marks another milestone. School is out, graduation season is here, and for many families, college is right around the corner.

My oldest daughter will be a senior this fall, which means our family is now officially entering the college application process. Like many parents, I’ve been looking at tuition numbers and mentally preparing myself for what feels like an inevitable financial hit.

And it’s a big one.

When I started college in the early 1990s, the average annual cost of attending a private university was roughly $10,000-$15,000 per year. Today, many private schools are approaching or exceeding $90,000 annually when you include tuition, housing, fees, and living expenses. In some cases, sending a child to college can cost more than buying a house did a generation ago.

At the same time, getting into many of these schools has become dramatically more competitive. Applications have exploded, acceptance rates have fallen, and students are expected to build résumés that would have looked extraordinary just a few decades ago.

Given those realities, I assumed the process was fairly straightforward: write the checks and hope the investment pays off.

What I learned from this week’s guest, however, was surprising.

Shellee Howard has spent decades helping families navigate college admissions, scholarships, and financial aid. One of the biggest myths she challenged is the belief that higher-income families don’t qualify for meaningful financial assistance.

According to Shellee, many affluent families leave substantial amounts of money on the table simply because they assume they won’t qualify.

We discuss merit scholarships, strategic college selection, FAFSA and CSS planning, scholarship negotiation tactics, and how certain schools are dramatically more generous than others. We also talk about recent rule changes affecting divorced families, why some assets are treated differently than others in aid calculations, and how proper planning can significantly reduce the total cost of attendance.

Perhaps the most important takeaway is that college pricing is often far more flexible than most families realize.

Whether your children are a few years away from college or applications are already underway, this episode may save you far more money than you expect.

Listen on Spotify:

Transcript

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated by AI and may not be 100% accurate. If you notice any errors or corrections, please email us at [email protected].

If the child, teenager has money in their name, if it’s in a retirement plan for them, they’re shielded. But if it’s, “Hey, I can go buy a yacht tomorrow,” that money’s gone.

Welcome everybody, this is Buck Joffrey with The Wealth Formula podcast. Today I am going to talk to you about something a little bit different. It’s something with summer here that some of you have got on your mind, especially those with kids. You know, we– summer marks another milestone, right? School’s out, graduation season is here And for many families, college is right around the corner.

My oldest daughter is gonna be a senior in the fall, which is crazy, ’cause if you go listen to my earliest shows, um, she’s on there as a little kid. Uh, and it’s, uh, kind of wild that she’s gonna be a senior next year. Uh, but anyway, it means our, our family’s now officially entering the g- college application process.

And like many parents, I’ve been looking at those tuition numbers and mentally preparing myself for what feels like an inevitable, uh, big financial hit. And, and you know, it’s a big one. When I started college in the, uh, uh, early ’90s, the average annual cost of attending a private university was somewhere between 10 and $15,000 per year, and now, uh, it is exceeding n- $90,000 annually when you include tuition, housing.

At the same time, getting into many of these schools actually has become, uh, really difficult, very competitive. Uh, applications have exploded, acceptance rates have fallen, and students are expected to build resumes that would have looked extraordinary just a few decades ago just to get into a school. My assumption has been that the process after she gets in is fairly straightforward: write the check and hope the investment pays off.

But what I learned from this week’s guest on Wealth Formula podcast was s- kind of surprising. Shelly, uh, Howard, she spent decades helping families navigate college admissions and scholarships and financial aid, and one of the m- biggest myths she challenged is the belief that the higher income families don’t qualify for any meaningful financial assistance.

According to Shelly, many affluent, uh, families leave substantial amounts of money on the table simply because they assume they won’t qualify. So, uh, in this episode, we’re gonna kinda open it up here to this kind of a different concept and, uh, focus, uh, for this week, which is involving merit scholarships, strategic college selection, uh, you know, scholarship negotiation tactics, and how certain schools are dramatically more generous than others.

We also talk about the recent rule changes affecting divorced families, and why some assets are treated differently from, uh, others in, in aid calculations, and, and how proper planning can significantly reduce the total, uh, cost of attendance. Anyway, good show to listen to if you are sending your kids to college anytime soon.

Maybe even if you’re already have kids in college, you still have a chance to maybe save some money. We’ll have that interview right after these messages. Hey everyone, if you haven’t done so, make sure you sign up for Investor Club. Investor Club is Wealth Formula’s private investment community. All you need to do is to go to wealthformula.com and sign up for free.

And if you are an accredited investor, you’ll get an opportunity to quickly do some paperwork and meet one-on-one with me and get onboarded. And once you do that, you get access to all sorts of potential private deal flow that you can only see if you’re part of the club. So join now. Join Investor Club at wealthformula.com.

Wealth Formula Banking is an ingenious concept powered by whole life insurance. But instead of acting

just as a safety net, the strategy supercharges your investments. First, you create a personal financial reservoir that grows at a compounding interest rate much higher than any bank savings account. As your money accumulates, you borrow from your own bank to invest in other cash flowing investments.

Here’s the key: even though you borrowed money at a simple interest rate, your insurance company keeps paying you compound interest on that money, even though you’ve borrowed it. Net result, you make money in two places at the same time. That’s why your investments get supercharged. This isn’t a new technique.

It’s a refined strategy used by some of the wealthiest families in history, and it uses century-old, rock-solid insurance companies as its backbone. Turbocharge your investments. Visit wealthformulabanking.com.

Again, that’s wealthformulabanking.com.

Welcome back to the show, everyone. Today, I am joined by Shelly Howard, who’s a college admissions strategist and the founder of College Ready, where she helps students gain admission to top universities while maximizing scholarship opportunities and minimizing debt.

She’s also the author of The College Admissions Plan Simplified: A Busy Parent’s Plan, uh, to a Debt-Free Degree. Shelly, welcome to the program.

Uh, thank you, Buck. Thank you for having me.

So I think this is a, you know, this is an important discussion to have, I think, um, because, you know, a lot of people, uh, certainly in this audience, I know have got kids who are getting near college, maybe they’re already in college or starting to plan for it.

Sure. Um, you know, l- let’s start with this, uh, just out of curiosity, and this is not really a financial thing, but, you know, I’ve got a, got a junior myself who’s, right now she’s on a college visit to a, a very expensive college. She likes to tell me frequently about how if I was applying to college these days, I probably wouldn’t get into the colleges I got into.

And, um, you know, and I, and I did go to an Ivy League college and all that, but, um, she’s probably right. It, it sounds to me like it has gotten just extraordinarily competitive. Can you talk a little bit about the changes? You know, I mean, listen, I, I applied in the early ’90s, so that’s the perspective I have for myself.

What– How have things changed?

So I, I think extreme is probably the best word to use. I started College Ready, uh, we’re on our 19th application season, so I’ve been doing this for quite some time, and so I can tell you truly what the trend has been. Um, College Ready was started when my firstborn came home and said he wanted to be a brain surgeon and go to an Ivy League school.

And just like you as a parent, you’re like, “Okay, that sounds great.” And we went on to figure out that it, it’s more competitive and it’s more expensive than it’s ever been. But what I like families to also understand is they have more tools than we ever had. They have, uh, the caliber of education has just continued to gotten better.

Um, that young man, uh, that was the reason I got started, he just finished, uh, as chief resident at UCLA Orthopedic Surgery. So that’s 15 years of education, and he did it all for $30,000 total.

Wow.

So that’s having a plan. Other people, his classmates from Harvard, I met them at his wedding, and I said, “So are you– Was it worth it?”

You know? And they’re like, the one who had $400,000 in debt is like, “I don’t know. I don’t know how I’m ever gonna pay this back.” Where my son is like, “This is great. I just got my first real job. I could pay that off my first couple of months.” Yeah. Like, this is no joke. So I like families to realize that if you don’t have a plan or if you just think you’re gonna pay and you just pay, that’s like walking up to a home and writing the realtor a check and saying, “I’ll take the full price home.”

It, it’s, it’s leaving everything and, and not truly doing what your due diligence is as they prepare.

So let’s talk about that because, um, you know, I think people are listening and, you know, they’re saying, “Well, I, you know, I make, I make 6, $700,000 a year right now, or a million dollars a year. Um, I mean, is this even a relevant conversation for me because no one’s gonna give me any financial aid?”

So what do you say to that?

So that is the biggest myth, that all of you can take a deep breath and realize that is not true. I was telling you earlier, I live in Southern California, grew up in Laguna Beach, California. I am you. I, I’m a listener. And if I can do it, you can do it. What it comes down to is people believe that that is true, and I have proven it wrong time and time again.

I have multimillionaire clients who are getting massive scholarships. I had a student this year from Laguna Beach get over $400,000 in scholarships because she earned it. That’s the thing. There’s a ton of money available, but the student has to work hard to earn it. It’s no longer just a handout, and not everybody gets a trophy.

And so for a family who really wants their child to have some skin in the game, which is where I was, I didn’t wanna just cut a check and see where it went, it, it really came down to having a strategic college list. My son applied to 12 colleges. He got accepted into 11. He had seven full-ride offers. They were not based on need, any of them Use- USC, he won the Presidential Scholarship, which is a full ride at USC.

Regardless of how much you do or don’t make, guess what? Harvard wanted him and they matched it.

Yeah. Well-

You, you, you do that

all the time. And- Well, a lot of people say, “Well, listen, that’s great Shelly, but my kid’s no, uh, you know, my kid’s no Harvard kid. My kid’s a s- you know, a smart kid who’s, who’s not gonna be winning any prizes to, for the full ride.”

So what, what do you do then?

So my second born, her dream was to go to University of Alabama. And again, I asked my kids, “What is wrong with California? UCLA’s a fine school. Stanford’s an amazing school.” And, you know, they each had their own reasons, and we worked her plan. She had a 3.6 GPA, a matching test score.

She had about 1,800 service hours. She wanted to be a nurse. She got a full ride to, to University of Alabama, all based on merit. So again, she didn’t wanna go to Harvard. She’s like, “Mom, please don’t make me go to Harvard. They’re all super smart and I don’t wanna work that hard.” So it really is about picking the right college for the right student and really matching the academic, social, and financial fit of the return on investment.

Now we’re also talking about AI. Will they have a job when they get out? That’s a big thing that we’re starting to talk to students about on that education. So there’s many things, but if you just assume you’re not gonna get money, you’re not But, but that’s the bottom line

So let’s talk about the sources of money for, you know, affluent families.

Like, I mean, what are they? What are, what are these, uh, sources?

So-

And obviously that’s part of the, part of what you do, but I mean, if you can give us sort of a high level thing to kind of understand, you know, what-

Right …

what’s out there. So

the FAFSA and the CSS Profile look at different things on your finances, right?

So the first thing you wanna do is to understand what is your student aid index. That’s number one. You have to do that if you wanna play the game. I, I tell, I tell listeners it’s like Monopoly. If I set down the Monopoly board in front of you, I handed you the dice, and I say, “Go win the game,” and you don’t know the rules, could you win the game?

Maybe, maybe not. But if I told you, “If you bought this place and this place and put hotels on it, you are gonna be in a totally different place to win this game,” you’d be like, “That’s all I have to do?” It’s exactly like playing the game of Monopoly. Mm-hmm. So where the money comes from, it depends on your student.

If you have a high-achieving student, high GPA, high test score, that’s one bucket of money. If you have a student who is an athlete or a visual and performing artist, there’s another bucket of money for that. If you have a student who does a lot of community service or leadership, another bucket of money for that.

So it’s really tapping into your child, creating a standout strategy to elevate, right, their resume, if you will, their application. Their essay has got to earn them the acceptance or they won’t have to worry about paying for it. So it’s about building that student to be the best version of themself and then go after that bucket of money.

So there’s so much money. I mean, right now Harvard has $53 billion. There’s plenty of money. If you get into an Ivy League right now and you make under 200,000, you get a free education. Mm-hmm. But you still have to get in, right? Yeah. So that’s where most people get really frustrated is, is that a good fit for my child?

Well, it may be or it may not be. And what we’re trying to help families understand is your child being uniquely them should receive scholarships for something. They’ve got to be good at something. I have a hard time believing that a, a person is not good at anything. And if that’s the case, it’s like going to a job and sitting there and watching the clock and doing nothing.

You’re not gonna get paid.

Yeah. So timeline-wise, you know, obviously the earlier you know about these things, the better. But when it, you know, like- So let’s take my kid. I’m interested, Shelly, let me tell you. She’s looking at schools that are, you know, six figures in, uh, per year. Of course, uh, I would rather not write a check I would rather write a smaller check.

Uh, and she’s a junior now. She’s high achieving. What… So is it too late? Is- are we too late in the game to do this kind of thing now? Or, or what, what would the steps be?

So good, better, and best. Good, better, and best. Best is if you, um, learn this when they’re in eighth grade.

Mm-hmm. Right?

It’s like a, a runway that we have time to pivot and make changes.

Where your assets are, as well as the money in your child’s name, can be a huge deal breaker, okay? Like massive. It almost happened to me. I saved quite a bit of money, and then as soon as they found out I had it, they wanted it. So you have to be mindful. The other thing is the FAFSA looks at the second semester of your sophomore year, the first semester of your junior year.

You want your financial house to be ready to be evaluated. It’s called a double double look back. And you want your financial house to be ready to be looked at, where your assets are held and where your cash is held. So important. It’s not just based on the amount of money that you bring in. That’s only one of the many equations.

So the first thing you wanna do is you wanna learn your student aid index. I do that for families complimentary if they meet with me so I can explain what it means. ‘Cause just to have it is, like, another thing that you’re like, “What do I do with it?” So I offer a complimentary call where I can break it down, what does it mean.

And I’m honest. I’m like, “Okay, your two W-2s and you have no assets, this is what we’re looking at.” Or, “You have five rental properties, and your, you know, your assets are this.” So it, it’s not one size fits all. It’s as different as your child is from my child, right? My bank account from your bank account. So what we need families to understand is, is if you wait to start putting money aside for retirement when you’re 70, you still have time to put money in, but it’s probably not gonna be that great.

Right.

Same thing with college admissions. If you know these strategies early on, eighth grade, ninth grade, you have an ability to pivot if you need to. But can you still make things work? Absolutely, all the way up until the day you say yes to the university. It’s like asking somebody to marry you. Once you ask them, you cannot take that back, and they are

That’s what they’re counting on. Yeah. So when you say yes to a university, you are signing that check Up until that moment, there’s opportunities. Remember, there’s independent scholarships, merit scholarships, need-based scholarships, and financial negotiations and reconsiderations. All of these buckets are available to families.

It’s just which bucket are you gonna pull from?

Mm-hmm. Do … Give us some examples of, of, you know, affluent families who didn’t have the, you know, the kid who was, uh, valedictorian or whatever the … what, what kind of difference it, it can make.

So the f- the question I would need to be able to do that is what makes that child special?

Mm-hmm.

Right? It’s kind of like if I came to you looking for a job and I’m like, “Buck, I really wanna work for you,” and you’re gonna say, “Where’s your resume?”

Yeah.

And I’m gonna say, “Buck, I’ve been at the beach. Like, I’m … I just don’t have very much time. I’m super busy studying.” Okay, fine. Student number two comes up, says, “Buck, I really wanna work for you,” and you say, “Where’s the resume?”

And I say, “I really tried to keep it to four pages. I know it’s long, but I could do your job and you can go on vacation.” Who you are g- who are you gonna give the money to?

Yeah.

They earned it.

Mm-hmm.

And that’s what, what is missing. Parents are not understanding that if your child is not doing anything to earn it, there’s not money for them.

How much can a, h- you know, and I’m sure that it’s across the board, but, you know, like, you’re talking about a family, an affluent family that can save 10 grand, or if an affluent family can save 50 gra- I mean, just, you know, just trying to, I think, just trying to give people a sense of what the possibilities are here.

I know we’ve kind of gone sort of really big picture, but I think it’d be nice to, you know-

And so that’s why I offer the complimentary call, is because it’s tough. If you’re in a divor- divorce family, all the rules are different. Think of it, listeners, like you could do your own taxes, or you pay a CPA who knows tax code.

Mm-hmm. Which one of you are going to save on taxes? Hands down, the CPA, they know tax code all the time, unless you know tax code as well as them. But if you’re an average person who’s just doing their hard job, k- you know, getting a paycheck, you don’t have time to figure out tax code. You’re… It’s like the big Beautiful bill.

It benefited so many people who were well off. So many people. There was so much opportunity. The, I mean, people could use their 529 for the very first time to pay for people like me and for tutors. Yeah. That’s massive. But if you didn’t know that, your family’s at a serious disadvantage, because my clients were using their 529 to drive up their test scores, which gives a ton of money.

If your child scores well their junior year on their PSAT, you can earn a free education So, so do you see where it’s hard to get granular and get really detailed is because there’s so much money out there. You tell me a scenario and I’m like, “Here’s where all the money is for your type of student,” but it’s because I’ve been doing it for so long.

Mm-hmm. There are colleges that are insanely generous, and there are colleges that are insanely stingy. Right. There’s a college right now who asks for 18 essays. There’s a college that asks for none. Is your child good at writing essays or are they not? Right. All of this has to really play into it because colleges are fighting over the best of the best, and that is where you get into financial negotiations and reconsiderations.

So if a student is applying, their dream school is, I don’t know, uh, pick any dr- dream school, and I can show you a similar college that is generous or more generous than your dream school, and you get accepted to both, we can use the one you got the money at to drive down the cost from the one you didn’t.

Yeah.

Nobody tells anybody about this.

Just for one concrete example that you brought up, curious, uh, you mentioned divorced families. Uh, how, how are that, how is that different?

So it’s huge, and it changed most recently about who is considered the parent who has to complete the FAFSA. It used to be, right, that the parent who the child spent the most time with was the person.

Not anymore. It’s now the parent who pays 51%, pays the greater amount for the child, and that’s the person. Well, that’s always the person who makes the most money, typically.

Right, right.

So then you have to dig deeper. Well, do they really pay 51% more, or is it a straight 50/50? Or maybe they’re 49, or do you see…

It… You have to analyze what numbers they’re really asking for. The, the number one reason why people don’t get money is they complete the FAFSA wrong. 94% last year completed it wrong because they, parents, they, they feel they’re not gonna get money, so they just go through the motions and they just, whatever.

And I look at it and I’m like, “Why did you put down your home, the c- the value of your home?” They don’t know. I said, “It didn’t ask you for the value of your home.” “Oh, well, I just assumed that’s what they wanted.” Yeah.

Well,

that’s the problem. You need to slow way down and only give them what they ask for.

Yeah. And I g- I assume trusts and stuff complicate things, too.

Um, trusts and the bigger complication is if the child, teenager, has money in their name- Mm … and it’s liquid. Those two things, if it’s in a retirement plan for them, they’re shielded. But if it’s, “Hey, I can go buy a yacht tomorrow,” yeah, that money’s gone.

Yeah. So it’s all about where your assets are held, and some assets are protected and others are not.

Uh, protected meaning you don’t, that, that they’re, they don’t count towards this calculation? They’re not

exposed.

What kinds of things are not typically,

or what, what things are protected? Um, if you have a r- well, your retirement, for one, right?

Life insurance is another. In other words, colleges are not expecting you to drain your retirement and to drain your life insurance. They can’t do that. Mm-hmm. So those are protected. But here’s another thing. What about a short-term rental? Well, I had one of those, and as soon as I found out that I could put it in my self-directed IRA, it’s now in my IRA

Got it.

Do you see what I’m talking about? Yeah. Like that’s a perfect small example.

Yeah. Interesting. What other, what other questions am I missing? Obviously I’m not, I’m, you know, I’m, I’m about to get knees deep in this. Yeah. But, uh, typical questions that you think, you know, that you think are good questions for people to know about.

So there’s quite a few. The first one is, don’t listen to all of the noise out there. Investigate it yourself or hire a professional who knows. Last year I had 29 seniors earn, uh, $11.8 million in scholarships. That’s earned, that’s not need. Okay? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There’s so much money out there, but if you’re not gonna go do it, it’s not gonna come to you.

If you don’t know where to find it, it’s not gonna just land in your lap. So that’s number one. Number two, get really clear what’s most important to your family. Is it the academic fit, the social fit, or the financial fit? And put them in order. Because when you’re building the college list and I ask a student, “What’s your dream school?”

And they say, “Oh, UC Santa Barbara.” And I’m like, “Oh, such a great school.” I said, “But why?” And they go, “Have you seen the view from the dorm?” And I’m like, “Oh, so you’re going to college on vacation-” Yeah … “and your parents are paying for it. Oh, I get it now.”

Yeah.

And so we have to get really clear from a family perspective of why would that child…

Another example. Had a parent get on a call, child said they wanna be a botanist. Parent says, “I’m not paying for NYU six figures a year for you to be a botanist. It does not make sense to me.” I said, “Well, why do you wanna be a botanist?” And she says, “Well, I wanna save the environment.” And I said, “So you don’t really like planting?”

And she goes, “No, I hate dirt. I just really wanna save the environment.” And I said, “So really you’re an environmentalist.” And so the dad’s like, “Oh, okay. Now I see where this is headed.” So it’s really getting clear on why that ROI needs to be there. If a student is going to be, one of the top jobs right now AI is taking over is computer science, and if they’re spending four years and they’re in $400,000 in debt and are graduating, there’s no entry-level job, that is a bad return on investment We’re helping families look at what is that education going to provide?

Is it a network of alum that I will never have to worry about a job, like the Ivys or some of the UCs? Or are they going into a field like entrepreneurship where nobody’s gonna ask them where they graduated from, right? Where, where, why do they need that diploma? If they’re gonna go on to medical school, they gotta graduate the top 5% of whatever college they’re going to, to be able to do well on the MCAT and to get into a top college.

I tell families, you might appreciate this, my son got one B at Harvard, graduated pre-med bio. He applied to 33 medical schools and got accepted to three. Had a 98 on his MCAT When your daughter said, “Dad, I don’t know if you would be able to do this now”-

Yeah …

I want you to realize it- she’s not kidding you.

Like- Yeah. No, for sure. And, you know, med school’s been like that for forever. Just the college thing is, uh, the college thing- Yeah … is kind of a completely different-

It’s caught, it’s caught, uh … My daughter being a nurse, one of the most sought out after professions, especially after COVID, where they all ditched it.

They’re like, “I don’t wanna do this anymore.” Now we’re dying and literally needing nurses hugely in demand, but there’s no teachers to teach the programs, and so the classes are super small, and so it’s super hard to get in to be a nurse.

Yeah. Yeah.

That’s the reality of the different professions.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Well, um, Shelly, this has been great. Um, tell everyone where they can get that free consultation that you’re talking about, and I, I may do it myself.

For sure. So if you wanna get your student aid index calculated, the, all you have to do is go to www.collegereadyplan, P-L-A-N, .info, I-N-F-O. And basically what happens is you s- say, yes, I would like to have a 30-minute s- session with me.

I send you your SAI calculation. You complete it. You don’t even have to share it with me, but you can ask questions. So if you’re like, “Hey, I’m a high, high earner, I don’t wanna share,” I- it doesn’t matter to me. All I need to know is your SAI number. Then I can tell you, here are opportunities for you and here are oppor- not, they’re off the table.

Then you know, will my child need to get a merit scholarship? Will they need to be looking at getting a, a, a scholarship from their test score, from their leadership, from their extracurricular? There’s still plenty of money, but you- at least you’ll have an idea on yes, there’s an opportunity, or no, there’s not for these buckets.

Yeah.

So it’s collegereadyplan.info. And then it, for your listeners, I have a special offer. I have two bestselling books. The first one is How to Send Your Student to College Without Losing Your Mind or Your Money, and my second is The College Admissions Plan Simplified. For your listeners, I have them on Amazon right now free to download.

Absolutely no cost because I want you to know it is possible. I don’t want it to stand in your way. And so listeners, just know what you don’t know is gonna cost you.

Shelley, thanks so much for being on Wealth Formula Podcast.

My pleasure.

You make a lot of money, but are still worried about retirement.

Maybe you didn’t start earning until your 30s, and now you’re trying to catch up. Meanwhile, you’ve got a mortgage, a private school to pay for, and you feel like you’re getting further and further behind. Now, good news. If you need to catch up on retirement, check out a program put out by some of the oldest and most prestigious life insurance companies in the world.

It’s called Wealth Accelerator, and it can help you amplify your returns quickly, protect your money from creditors, and provide financial protection to your family if something happens to you. The concepts here are used by some of the wealthiest families in the world, and there’s no reason why they can’t be used by you.

Check it out for yourself by going to wealthformulabanking.com.

Welcome back to the show everyone. Hope you enjoyed it. Uh, I will say again, uh, it is a, it is nice to know that there may be some options out there for some of us who normally wouldn’t qualify for, uh, financial aid. But, um, I would suggest checking this out with, uh, Shelly.

I mean, you can certainly, uh, at least, at least give her a, a buzz and, and see if she can give you some sense of how she can help you. Anyway, that is it for me this week on Wealth Formula Podcast. This is Buck Joffrey signing off. If you wanna learn more, you can now get free access to our in-depth personal finance course featuring industry leaders like Tom Wheelwright and Ken McElroy.

Visit wealthformularoadmap.com