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241: Ask Buck Q4 2020 Part 1!

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Catch the full episode: https://www.wealthformula.com/podcast/ask-buck-q4-2020-part-1/

Buck: Welcome back to the show everyone. And again this is the first episode of Ask Buck for the fourth quarter and I don’t know how many there’s gonna be. There’ll probably be three at least maybe four who knows we’ll have to see but this week what I really wanted to do is to try to address questions for the most part that had you know some level of time pressure on them and as you can imagine a lot of these questions are about you know end of the year tax planning and mitigation tax mitigation and that kind of thing. Now and that being said I should tell you right now even though I talk a lot about this kind of stuff, I am not a CPA so anything that I say, I don’t want you to construe is tax or legal advice. I’m telling you my own experience and I happen to have a really good CPA in in Tom Wheelwright but anything I say you should go through your own tax professional to make sure that those kinds of things are kosher for you as well. So with that I’m going to start there’s a series of written questions. There’s some that are mpegs and so we’ll play those as well. 

I’m going to start with a question from Sean Adams. Sean says hey been reading a lot of bucks tax saving ideas and love the approach for passive investing depreciation I know these strategies are particularly most effective for business owners any advice or resources for high paid W2 employees I’ve owned businesses in the past and deliberately returned to an individual contributor sales role because it suits me better keep up the tremendous content really enjoying it, Sean. Okay thank you Sean I appreciate that and well let me just start out by saying that there do your you know when you say that you had businesses but it suited you better to be I guess an employee I do hope that and I’m assuming you know this but there there is a happy medium between being a business owner you know and having a bunch of employees and you know in a in a W2 income guy because you know as you know even if you did sales and I think you said you’re in sales but you did it as a you know as a independent contractor that got paid into an entity you’d certainly have a lot more options than you do as a W2 income earner that said I think it is a good time to review what options people do have this late in the game with just really a couple weeks left in the 2020 year to really execute anything and you know just starting with what you talked about as a W2 wage earner well what are the strategies that you know are available to you well you are right on when you say that they’re pretty limited they are very limited but let’s talk about some of the things that are out there and and and I’ll give you my two cents on that I mean we you know there’s there’s oil and gas that’s not controversial at all in the sense that you know there’s not any you know there’s nothing that you have to worry about with the irs or anything like that if you invest in oil and gas in many cases there’s drilling involved and normally you know with these kinds of things you know there is there is depreciation but because of the whole bonus depreciation availability to us right now you can take the full in in many cases take the full amount of your investment and write it off in the first year so I should point out that this type of bonus depreciation usually is not something that you can write off against W2 income but the oil and gas lobby is a strong one I’ll tell you that much and you know there’s a lot of reason for you know very favorable oil and gas tax law and a lot of it has to do with our own desire to become energy independent we’ve certainly reached these kinds of goals where we’re now a neck net exporter in this country but you know I think that’s that’s probably the big one that you know I certainly have done it in the past when I initially got out of training and I had a lot of ordinary income and some of it was W2 as well so that’s that’s an option and like I said normally bonus depreciation from investments is not something that can be used to offset W2 income but oil and gas is favorable in this regard I would tell you that you know I would refer you if this is a topic that’s of interest to you on a recent podcast I did it it was it was the last one on oil and gas just go back a week or two and it was Tom powell the founder of resolute capital and we talked about it and i think they’re you know they’re they’re they’re one of the one of the operators in this area that I think is probably worth getting to know and certainly I should remind you too that i don’t invest in oil and gas myself I mean I have the real estate professional designation which allows all of my passive losses to offset active income as well and that’s because I spend most of my time doing real estate and therefore something like oil and gas that has frankly quite a bit more volatility has quite a bit more risk than our real estate projects it’s really just not that appealing to me however if I was a W2 guy I’d probably consider you know something that had a structure like resolute a team like resolute and so again I would I would suggest you go back and listen to that that podcast a few weeks ago with Tom powell the only other real opportunity for offsetting W2 income over the past few years for you know high net worth people has been this has been conservation easements and I almost you know i always kind of feel a little uncomfortable talking about conservation easements on the show because they are pretty controversial the irs hates them so what are they well there are kind of a charitable giving so to speak where you can essentially essentially write off four or five dollars for every dollar you put into it so as you can imagine you can get a pretty substantial type of write-off against all kinds of income you know including W2 income with this kind of thing and then a lot of states like California even recognizes them so they can impact your state taxes now again the irs hates them we have I’m not saying that you shouldn’t do them but I am definitely not going to tell you to do them either I’m not going to give you any advice on this in the past I’ve been a little bit more neutral I have participated but there is enough irs attacks and legislative flux this year where I would personally personally not feel comfortable with conservation easements per se now if I really needed something like this which I don’t because again I have structured myself in a way where I am incentivized to invest in real estate which is really awesome frankly you know if I really wanted to do something like this and need it I would consider something similar to a conservation easement that we’ve talked about within investor club if again it’s another reason to join our investor club it’s called a fee simple gift and that is something that I think if it were me I would definitely not be doing conservation easements right now I would be doing a fee simple gift because of the attacks and even the legislation that threatens threatens conservation easements actually does not include you know talk about these fee simple gifts so so I think right now if it were me that’s what I would be considering I would not be doing conservation easements this year so so that’s what I would tell you now this this stuff again is pretty complicated all of this stuff when I talk about with oil and gas and certainly with conservation easements and fee simple gifts etc it’s really stuff just for accredited investors if you’re not accredited you’re kind of out of luck I think and I should remind you again if you’re interested you should join a credit investor club because this is the kind of stuff we talk about we don’t just have deal flow but we also have educational webinars on this kind of thing and we did have one on fee simple gifts so if you’re an accredited investor and you were trying to figure this stuff out join the group and if you missed the webinar shoot me an email and I will get that link out to you for the replay on on fee simple gifts so let me just end on this question by saying that my personal strategies for this year are really really related to bonus depreciation and well more bonus depreciation I mean that is really my focus so you know I’ve acquired a lot of real estate with a lot of losses because of cost segregation and analysis and bonus depreciation and I’ve also invested quite a bit in our wf velocity atm fund where you you know you can take a hundred percent of your investment and bonus depreciation first year now we don’t have any more real estate in investor club that is closing in 2020 so that you can get more bonus depreciation if you can use it however you can still participate in the wf velocity atm fund if you’re an accredited investor it’s a reg d 506 c offering and if you if you get your funds in by december 20th you can still take a hundred percent of bonus depreciation on your investment so so go to wfvelocity.com if you’re interested in that but this again this strategy again is predicated on you having passive income and and I just want to reiterate something that I think will be an ongoing theme that if I can get people to to really kind of digest I think I’ll be doing you a great service that is in my opinion I’m hoping where most of you focus your time is in the in the development or in the creation I should say of passive income you know the cleanest least controversial ways to mitigate your tax bill for the you know year is ultimately through strategies using passive income and taking passive losses against it even if bonus depreciation if and when it goes away and it will you still have you know accelerated losses through cost segregation analysis etc that you can you know really run on what we call this golden hamster wheel so you know passive income just as a reminder can be from ancillary income like surgical centers and infusion centers too you know it doesn’t have to be just from real estate you know obviously our atms are passive income as well but you know I think that i think it’s really important I think if you go back and listen to our recent or most recent interview with Tom Wheelwright where we really focused in on the concepts of creating passive income that is where I truly believe that you should be spending your time if you can’t be you know a real estate professional because you really need to build this thing that we call passive income and many of you actually have it and it has just not been recognized that that and in that case sometimes you may need a new CPA you know if you if you focus on creating passive income now I’m gonna guarantee pretty much that you’re gonna do yourself a big favor I mean that’s not tax or legal advice it’s nothing I’m just telling you I truly believe that it’s actually something that you can actually ramp up pretty quickly if you can figure out how to do it I have to tell you just from my atm machines alone I’ve got I’ve racked up six figures of passive income per year because the return is so rapid in terms of how quickly you get your money back in your pocket now I have businesses where I also spend you know very few hours per year that are passive in nature you know there’s lots of things you can do and I know a lot of you are doing it and some of you are doing it again you’ve got passive businesses but you’re for some reason your tax professionals are not counting is that it’s very doable if you put your mind to it so I’ll leave it at that.

Now the next question is from Nick Sexton. Nick asks when developing an entity producing an ancillary stream of income so obviously this is a related question to our last topic such as an ambulatory surgical center x-ray you know center or whatever is there anything specific that needs to be legally declared or structured in the operating agreement or anywhere else in order to confirm the distributions will be considered passive for the stakeholders the motivation of course would be to take advantage of the suspended passive real estate losses and again I think this is again a very important topic and I should again preface this by saying I can’t give you specific legal or tax advice I can just tell you that the key is really really what it comes down to is that is there material participation in the activity so in my own case I have a cosmetic surgery business in chicago and I don’t practice in it. I live in California after all I’m on a call once per week maybe I get a you know an occasional you know occasional involvement in a marketing strategy or something like that but all in all it’s probably less than 75 hours per year for me that goes into that business and so it’s passive now you can check and you should check with your CPA on what constitute material activity but though it’s that’s the key word right it’s really for the most part these things are all about whether or not you spend material time material activity and these how much time you spend in these businesses I mean think about what the real estate professional designation is making it an active business 750 hours per year minimum and you do nothing more actively that’s you know essentially what a real estate professional is so that’s what makes something passive which is most real estate investments into something that’s active so think about the opposite of that again I don’t want to give you specific advice on this but it’s something you really should absolutely discuss with your CPA and again that is you know for legal reasons I don’t want to give you any kind of advice however again you know if you go back to the show that Tom Wheelwright was on a couple weeks ago where we talked about passive income we we talked about ways to structure your businesses legally to take advantage of passive income that you may not that you may not be recognizing right now and every medical business for example and I know I don’t you know I don’t know if you’re necessarily I can’t remember if your physician or not but every medical business has medical equipment right and now is there a reason why the equipment that you have in your office couldn’t be owned by a separate entity where your primary business has to lease the equipment from how about the same leasing company you know acting as a marketing company or maybe it does payroll and it gets paid for that anyway listen I don’t again I don’t want to give you any specifics here but again you are you know when it comes to this stuff I will just tell you that you are only limited by the limitations of skill of your CPA and I’ve sent people to my CPA where he has literally saved them six or even seven figures simply by restructuring what they are already doing in terms of people’s businesses and of course you know Tom will wright is not probably for everybody but you know i would suggest you know contacting wealth ability in the wealth ability network let them know if you do by the way if you go to wealthability.com that you’re you know with us so that you know you get a little extra tlc because obviously I’m pretty close with Tom so anyway but going back to the basic question that you had about what is passive I would just say get the definition of an active business or pat you know from your CPA which should be the opposite of a passive one and it has to do again primarily with material participation and fundamentally you got to ask your CPA okay what is it going to take for you to feel comfortable saying that this is a passive business because at the end of the day it’s your CPA who is filing your taxes and who’s going to potentially represent you in some kind of an audit right so it doesn’t even matter what I say in that regard okay so hopefully that’s helpful.

The next question is from Jim Mccracken and Jim says hey Buck oil and gas drilling investments are popular this time of the year for investors with active income what are your thoughts on its three to five year risk profile with WTI currently around forty dollars for example do you see a hundred thousand dollar investment as a good bet with upside or a significant risk given oil demand might never come back to previous levels these funds typically have a four to six year hold horizon question mark this is aside from the risk of hitting a dry spot and not finding oil thanks. All right Jim well again not giving you financial advice here because you know I’m legally not allowed to do that however let me just say this I have never to your to your question about you know is a good upside with you know good bet with upside I have never jim seen oil and gas investments as a good bet I just haven’t until you know until I found resolute capital again Tom paul’s group I wasn’t even interested in interviewing anyone on the topic anymore because I really was concerned that people were just going to lose money as you know I had early on I mean I invested in oil and gas probably a decade ago and yeah I got the tax write-off but no I never stopped any money from that again so listen here’s why first of all there’s volatility I mean you you address that we don’t know what oil prices are going to be especially right now and so that creates an inherent risk but right now I will say that I think it’s probably less of a concern that particular issue of volatility if you consider you know a three to four year horizon for example and I know that’s what I think resolute really does Tom powell’s group so if you listen to that podcast again the oil and gas one I did with Tom a couple episodes Tom paul about oil and gas a few episodes back you know he talks about this now tom’s a pretty smart guy he’s a really smart guy so that’s one of the reasons I you know like talking to him on this topic even though I’m not an oil and gas guy myself but you know there does appear to be a demand issue that’s creeping into the picture which and also a a shortage in supply just from what happened in the last you know several months where it seems like prices will likely go up from where they currently are in the next three to four years or you know certainly not go down but again it’s all sort of speculation so at that point you know I think if you say that prices of you know at least probably stay where they are or go higher I think the bigger problem that I see with most oil and gas investments is that they operate on you know this kind of heads we win tails you lose philosophy where you know most of the oil and gas operators out there make sure they are heavily compensated up front and then go drilling right it’s like wild catting and if if you if if they don’t find oil then well well at least they still got paid and if they do find oil then they’ll split the profits with you on top of that so they win and win again this is usually not like real estate or even if there is a promote of course there’s a promote there is but there’s also an underlying asset that has value that you are buying it’s not drilling for oil now again I should point out that one of the reasons that I have featured you know resolute on the show is because they are different they buy many working wells do some drilling and essentially what their goal is to flip the wells like real estate so they also have huge amounts of skin in the game I should mention as well because that’s really important they don’t take upfront fees you know I know tom’s got Tom powell’s personally got millions of dollars in these in in in what they’re doing so anyway if I’m investing in oil and gas which I’m not that’s probably the that you know that resolute model is probably the type of model that I’d be looking for I would just say that the vast majority of these oil and gas guys especially those in the podcast ecosystem are very concerning to me and I would consider them radioactive at best so resolute is probably the only one that I’m not suspicious of and again it’s you know listen to Tom powell on that podcast and you know make your own judgment on that.

Let’s see let’s move on to the next question this one is going to be an audio question.

Dave: Yeah hi Buck this is Dave from Sonoma California thanks so much for all the great content you continue to provide for us I know you spent a lot of time in the past talking about the real estate professional designation and passive income gains versus passive activity losses and especially like the recent conversation with Tom Wheelwright regarding asking the question how can I convert at least some of my active income to passive income it seems that either me or my wife getting the rep real estate professional status is sort of the holy grail here because my understanding is it would allow us to offset active income from either of us with passive losses so this year I’ve been an active participant in some of investor clubs offerings and I’m expecting pretty significant k1 losses for 2020 but as I investigate ways to use these losses other than just carrying them forward until I have passive gains as in your golden hamster wheel analogy which i realize is not a bad way to go I seem to be getting some conflicting information I’ve spoken with a few different CPAs and I keep being told that generally speaking if I’m a limited partner in a syndication that these losses will not receive ordinary income treatment even if I do qualify as a real estate professional that basically once I have real estate professional status I must actively participate in each activity in order to deduct the losses so if this is true this test would be hard for me to pass as an LP in a syndication investment so I know you’re not a CPA and can’t give tax advice but I’d just like to get some clarification on this point and was wondering if you could speak to your interpretation of this thanks Buck.

Buck: So Dave as you mentioned I can’t I’m not a CPA and I can’t give tax advice I have to keep saying that over and over again Tom will wright likes to remind me to to to point that out all the time so I do however I can tell you that my CPA tells me that once you have established yourself as a real estate professional and what I mean by that is that again you’ve got the material activity you know you’ve got to have material activity you cannot you cannot become a real estate professional just by investing in limited partnerships however let’s say now you’ve got you know a few apartment buildings or whatever real estate and you’re racking up powers etc my understanding and what my CPA who you know tells me is that once you have done that then your limited partnerships in real estate will go in that same bucket effectively as the other real estate activity and it’s no longer just an issue of you know an LP thing now as far as the LPs that you’re currently in before you have any real estate professional designation my understanding is those are trapped as as passive you know passive losses you can’t go back and collect those once you have a designation but what I’m telling you is that again my CPA who you know disagrees with your CPA however again you know LPs cannot make you a real estate professional the rep designation has to be established by material participation in which real estate LPs are not but your question really becomes really relevant once you’ve established yourself as a real estate professional I can tell you that there are many people in our investor community where they have established themselves as real estate professionals and at that point those LPs go in the same real estate basket and the depreciation they’re getting is used the same way as other real estate that they own as real estate professionals now again I think this is a very very tricky CPA type question you got to have a CPA who’s very familiar with real estate you got to have one who really understands the law I mean I think that in my case you know Tom Wheelwright is is a very conservative CPA but conservative in the sense that he won’t do anything he thinks is not legal but you need to have you need to make sure that your CPA feels comfortable with this and frankly this is a situation where you may need to talk to a few different CPAs because well if you have somebody who’s telling you you can’t do something whereas you’ve got a bunch of people around you who are who are doing it and their CPAs say that you can do it then you might need a new CPA so hopefully that answers your question. I know it’s not really an answer but it is a way of telling you that I don’t think that you know that you should settle for the answer you can do that. I think those are some of the more time sensitive questions so I’m going to move on to some other stuff that maybe not quite as time sensitive with end of the year stuff.

Craig: Hello this is Craig Wessler Buck I wanted to thank you for the podcast that you had in which you had a hotel broker on your podcast and he had made some recommendations of specific hotel stocks it was probably two or three months ago that you had him on the podcast I have a 457 plan I did use the cares act to take out 200 000 100 000 withdrawal plus 100 000 loan but the rest of the money that was in there in my 457 plan has to stay with the plan because I’m still a state employee and it’s self-directed but only in the stock market so I was able to take your recommendation and put it into those three hotel stocks and those hotel stocks are up apple in and I forgot the other one the third one but they’re up tremendously so I just want to thank you for that.

Buck: Well Craig I’m glad to hear that that worked out for you again that was a if you go back I can’t remember what number it was it was basically the the the it was an interview called should you invest in in hotels it’s something i think is something that is worthwhile in the future and what’s interesting about I think what’s interesting about that is that you know I had this guy on the show who’s a broker here in California and you know he’s a really good guy he was actually has helped one of my friends who’s a hotelier was very successful with developing his portfolio and the funny thing about it was I had them on there and a lot of times people you know try to sell their services and you know they basically are looking for clients and when I asked this guy Steve if he you know if you know if what he recommended right now he basically said well right now it’s you know it’s tough to get any lending on these things because of covid et cetera but I’m looking at these you know these these stocks which were basically REITs that were just got crushed with with Covid and he said you know if for me that’s where how I would invest in these things right now that was really nice of them right I mean that and I think that’s one of the powerful things about the guests and and people in our community that we have on this show is a lot of time we just have people who are just really good at what they do and they give you real information and you know he was honest he could have just told you hey come call me and we’ll figure something out but he was like well probably the smartest thing is just to buy these REITs and he gave names of three REITs and it sounds like it did really well for Craig so I’m glad that worked out for you Craig worth the price of admission on the podcast I guess.

All right next question.

Jinhee: Hello Buck my name is Jinhee Park and I’m a physician I’ve been listening to your podcast for about a year thank you so much for the great information I it’s been about five years since I got out of my residency training and I still have about a hundred and sixty thousand dollars of student loan debt at about five point eight seven five percent interest rate supposed to be being paid off in 20 years and I have I think about 17 more years left to go after listening to your podcasts and reading rich dad poor dad I got I got into real estate and this year this past year I sold some of my rental properties and I got into about six commercial syndication deals and some multi-family and then self-storage investments and I have the option after selling a single family home I have the option either to get into three more syndication deals by the end of this year or to completely pay off all my student loans and I’m debating which one is a better option right now because the the syndication deals that I’m looking at they say well the the return annual return would be about 20 17 to 20 percent annualized return for the next five years which sounds great so if that’s if if that turns out to be you know real then it’ll be worthwhile going for this indication deals instead of paying off my student loans but at the same time I also it’s it’s a risk getting into any kind of investment because there’s a chance that I might just lose money because I’m giving my money away to people who are going to be controlling the the the assets so I keep on going back and forth should I pay off my student loans completely in you know start from zero with peace of mind or should I take advantage of this opportunity opportunity that I made this the sale of my single family home I have a big chunk of cash that I can just use to pay off my student loans and be done with it so I’m sure a lot of other physicians who’ve been through bed school who took out student loans have the same you know debate in their mind so if you can answer this question for me and also for other physicians I would really appreciate it thank you.

Buck: Well again Jinhee i would just say that you know I it’s a tough situation because it’s you know an advice question and I just it’s hard for me to give people advice because I think you know and I think there are legal ramifications etc and and all that but let me put myself in your position and let me tell you how I’d be thinking about it generally speaking and and I did I was in this position where I had student loans etc at one point for me what it really came down to is is math did I believe that I could take the money and actually get a better return from my investments than the interest rate that I was paying on the loans now so my interest rates were my interest rates I believe back when I had them were lower than 5.875 that’s you know pretty high but I think that that’s really what I would be contemplating in my in in my mind is you know can I invest and beat the interest rate confidently so what would I do well what did I do well I did invest in real estate I did get far better returns and eventually just kind of you know slugged out those those student loans because they seem fairly insignificant they became a nuisance more than anything else but you know I use my dry powder to try to create capital rather than to pay down debt now obviously that is a controversial approach but I am not exactly you know I’m i’m not typical in terms of you know what people say about this stuff you know I’m not the guy who says erase all your debt first because you know i think that there is a tremendous you know there’s a tremendous power in being able to use your cash to create more cash but I do think if you focus on it in terms of do I think my returns will be better if I invest them then you know the interest rate that I’m paying I think that’s a good way to think about it in general you know i personally you know let’s just take for example you know the atm stuff that we’ve been talking about I mean it’s a good example where you know there’s again it’s a reg d 506 c credit investor limited thing but you know you’ve got essentially a you know 20 over 22 [Music] point something percent per year you know fixed return for for seven years to me you know that that ends up the internal rate of return on that ends up you know far exceeding the 5.8 percent I mean that is something that pays on a monthly basis for me I’d probably be looking at something like that looking at something with cash flow you know looking at a looking at real estate and you know projects that are going to give me good returns and that have some cash flow so I can pay off those loans as they come that’s kind of what I would be doing but again I don’t want to give you advice per se but think about it this way think about it as anything else like can you do better than 5.87 with your investments and if the answer is that you can do 10 well you know you’re paying your 5.87 and you’re taking another four percent home so that that’s how I look at it but you know everybody looks at this stuff differently.

 I think okay I think we have time for one more question on this week’s Ask Buck.

Peter: Hi Buck this is Peter from new york I want to thank you for all the great content and the great investment opportunities you brought to us my question is a bit of a follow-up from some things you’ve previously discussed around being a real estate professional I know I’m not a real estate professional and my only passive income is from these types of investments so the losses they generate I can only use to offset income from passive investments and as a result I can’t use all the losses every year but from my research it looks like those losses can be carried forward to future years so that they can be used on an ongoing basis and especially in the year where the investment is sold likely generating a very large gain those carry forward losses could offset that so while I can’t get the immediate benefit real estate professional can it does seem like I won’t lose the losses and will ultimately be able to use them and not get burned in the end I just wanted to see if that was consistent with your thinking and it’s hopefully not as bad as I thought it might be thank you.

Buck: A good question Peter that is listen it’s you know I’m again I’m not a CPA but I’ll tell you that I’m about a hundred percent sure that your losses in these things carry forward and definitely you know basically all of the losses that you’re accruing vis-a-vis depreciation etc in in real estate or whatever they don’t just magically disappear eventually you know you’re gonna you’re gonna use them you know and the funny thing is that in some cases you might even try to accumulate these kinds of losses even though you know that you’re not going to be using them in the same year now let me give you an example of that because it might be relevant to some people you know we know for example that bonus depreciation is set to expire in 2022 and we also know that there’s probably a pretty good chance well almost a guarantee if if the senate is overturned to back to the democratic party that that will be reversed very quickly and there will not be you know this unlimited bonus depreciation you know perhaps as early as sometime early in 2021 we’ll see but certainly by 2022 it’s it’s said to expire anyway so there’s a good chance we won’t have it anymore so right now because of this bonus depreciation provision we are able to deduct a significant portion of our real estate investments like you’ve done because of cost segregation analysis and bonus depreciation and I should point out again that that the atm fund that’s still open for 2020 depreciation also allows you to take a hundred percent of your investment as bonus depreciation in the first year so even if you’re not using it this year you may say well if I accumulate big chunks of those losses now it might not be able to accumulate them as quickly as I need them later when you have passive gains that you want to write off so again going back to the idea that we all really should be focusing on essentially one of two things either you know you become a real estate professional and you’re able to you know activate all these passive losses vis-a-vis real estate and you know use them against all your other active income that’s one thing that’s not where most people are going to be because most people simply don’t have the ability to give up their job and become full-time real estate people but if you the other option is to build that you know that passive income bucket and I hate the word bucket in this regard but but that’s really what the way you look at it through all of the ways that we’ve talked about you know several times on this show whether that’s you know accumulation with dividends through real estate or atm machines or something like that or you know more more potentially with greater acceleration if you can figure out some business activity or take part of your business and realize hey that’s been passive all along you know there are so many opportunities here to build passive income I really think that that’s what we need to be doing that’s what everybody in our community probably should really be focused on and thinking about how do we do this because listen there’s always these like you know tax strategies and sometimes they’re you know pretty controversial as we talked about when it comes to conservation easements sometimes they’re like oil and gas where you’re like yeah but I don’t know if I really want to invest in oil and gas and so we just let the tax you know let that let the let the tax wag the tail so to speak and and you know doing something better than that would be to actually create income and then allow your investments that you want to do like in real estate and let those losses actually become active and use them because you have enough passive income that’s where we ought to be focusing that’s where everybody I think who’s listening ought to be focusing and hopefully we can continue building on you know that conversation in the year to come. So anyway that is it for questions this week we will be right back