Buck: Welcome back to the show everyone. Today my guest on Wealth Formula Podcast is Dr. David Phelps. David has owned and managed a dental practice for over 20 years in the past, however, like me, he always had his eye on something else, which in his case was real estate and he began investing with his father back in 1980. Coincidentally I was in kindergarten in 1980 David. And I’m not not exactly a young guy either.
David: So what are you saying about me?
Buck: I’m just saying you were the grand, you are a very experienced man. He certainly had his fair share of bumps and bruises along the way as he’s very open about, but he’s now a nationally recognized speaker on creating freedom, building businesses and investing in real estate. He’s also the founder of Freedom Founders which is a mastermind community of primarily dental practitioners that helps guide them along their financial journey. David welcome back to Wealth Formula Podcast.
David: Buck, it is always a pleasure to be with you, talk to you, you know just to have conversations about what we’re seeing the space what people are doing and you know like-minded people, it’s just fun.
Buck: Yeah so okay so before we get started, it’s been a while. You were on a while back. But you know these audiences constantly grow and so remind us just a little bit about how you ended up getting into real estate, whereas you know most dentists who are in dental school really are just focusing on hey you know we’re gonna get a job or how can i start a practice.
David: I think it just comes from the fact, Buck that I’ve always been a little different. Not in a bad way, but to some degree, I marched to my own beat, like I wasn’t nerdy I wasn’t some genius kid that you know what got all A’s in academics. I had to work for everything I did but I think I think the key element is always inside me there was an entrepreneurial spirit, yet at the same time because I was academically good enough to you know go on to be a doctor, lawyer, dentist you know whatever that that’s kind of path you took when you got patted on the head by your teachers and your parents and everybody said well you know you can do this and so you know you do, but that that inside spirit that I always had I guess never left. And so when I was in college probably soon your senior year you know so I’m prepping for the dental admissions test exam and you know started to look ahead to them because that’s the direction I decided to go, I’m reading some books besides organic chemistry and probably you probably I’m not a wise thing but I still had you so I read books about how to invest money because I knew someday I would have hopefully have money to invest I wanted to be a you know good student that’s kind of how I’ve always been built in life is to learn how to well you know make money because I want to be independent. Even as a kid I had to go out and make my own money by doing work, trading time for dollars, mowing lawns, selling newspapers, selling greeting cards sort of door because my parents didn’t give it to me and thank God they didn’t. They made me figure out how to do myself. So I’m thinking in college you know someday I’ll have some money and I need to learn how to invest it so I read books on the stock market, mutual funds and now I found a few books on real estate and remember, Buck, this is back before we had the internet okay so this is what you had actually either you bought a book at Walden’s bookstore or you went to the library right. So there’s no internet online anything. So I’m reading books about stock market and real estate and the real estate just hands-down made sense to me. It was something that I saw that you could have control over you could add value to it and that just appealed to me so that’s why when I graduated college and started dental school the next year and I told my dad who was a surgeon and not I mean, an entrepreneur and respect that he was a surgeon had his own office but no not doing real estate and stuff like I do today. And I said dad I’m gonna be in here in Dallas for the next four years going to dental school and I either pay rent or we and the key word was we could own a property rental property. And thank goodness he put his trust in me and flew down spent a couple weekends with Realtors and you know looking at properties and really the main thing I realized from the books I read about real estate was you know it’s about location. So kind of buy the worst property in the best area you can and then we kind of dialed in the rest and well that little that little formula worked for us. So maybe a little bit of luck but then you know you have to create opportunity to have luck. And long story short that property produced a capital gain that we split 50/50 of a little over fifty thousand dollars I took mine and parlayed that into more properties by using massive leverage, buying subject to single-family houses that was my bread and butter that got me going and the rest is kind of you know the rest of the story this is real estate and always been a significant part of my life.
Buck: Yeah no it’s great story. Now let’s talk a little bit about you know the rest of the kids in the class and you talk about this in the context of a gap with dental schools in particular don’t teach you and how you can overcome it. Now this actually relates to more than dental students and their anything is I think it actually even relates to people get their MBAs, I mean they don’t know about personal finance they may know how to be a manager right but how would you describe it? What is this gap and you know how do you fill it?
David: Yeah absolutely it pertains to a wide, wide range of people Buck that that are you know highly educated. And I think the gap is its practical application. Now you could go and get an MBA or you could be a finance major that’s one the one thing and you would have theoretical knowledge to work in a certain environment corporate financial world and that might work there but the actual practical application of how does one create real wealth, and wealth to me it means you’ve got assets, I love alternative investment assets as you do but you’ve got assets that will produce income for you that can have a growth component both of which are important to provide for you so you do not have to work for that income or that growth. You create it once you build it once you invest in it once and then it carries forward until the day you harvest equity and do something else. So that’s something that’s never taught in school schools teach all of us no matter what level we go through. It teaches us to be workers it gives me workers in a system and you can decide what level of work you want to do and trading time for dollars for you know higher and higher dollars but you and I both know that’s not freedom. That is a ball and chain a system that only perpetuates itself because the higher the income one achieves it doesn’t mean more freedom, it probably usually means more lifestyle and that’s the conundrum.
Buck: Yeah and it’s no coincidence I don’t think either that is that it doesn’t teach you to be an entrepreneur and that teaches you how to become a worker bee because at the end of the day if you think about where the educational system comes from it’s basically the Industrial Revolution brought over from the Prussian system and basically it’s like a conveyor belt model right and it gives you a certain amount of information at each point and then you’re done and then it you’re off the conveyor belt and you know into the workforce, but there really is no you know for the people who were in charge of that Industrial Revolution there was really no benefit in necessarily trying to train people in how to necessarily think right but rather to just do so.
David: Well and not to be like too political here I’ll try to keep it low. But you know really Buck that’s really what the education system is today it is the education system wants workers they don’t want people to think. So we’ll keep it hush-hush for another episode it’s kind of continued on right and so that’s not a good situation.
Buck: Yeah and the other thing I’ll just add one more thing as it was recently somebody sent me an article about how they’re going to require some financial education in Pennsylvania now in public schools and I thought well at first it’s a good thing but then you wonder who’s behind the education right and then I know if I’m Wall Street I’m out there like sponsoring these educational events right and saying hey you know let’s push for this whole thing that you call the Accumulation Theory. Now talk about the Accumulation Theory in terms of personal finance and why you think of it as a problem.
David: Well and also you know who sponsors that whole program? Well that’s Congress and Wall Street got together and say hey we got a new one for the folks and it’ll be called the 401k started back in the late 70s with the bill the Finance Bill that came out during that time. So what the accumulation theory basically says Buck is you’ll go to work, work hard, be disciplined and and scrimp and save and keep enough after your overhead in your business and after you pay your lifestyle and you pay your taxes have enough left over that you’re saving that well that’s good discipline right that’s good this one I agree to that point. You need to say you need to be this one and always take something I don’t say awful I say take it off the top meaning meaning you need to carve that out. Now it’s what you do with that capital that you’ve carved out what you do with this the key part. And so Wall Street and traditional financial planning would say well just stack it up and give it to us, you’ll give it to the financial advisor the person who’s going to manage it for you, because face it, it’s just the world is way too complicated. You guys need to focus on the cycle and what you do and let us take care of your money because it’s way too complex, we’ll handle it for you, we’ll give you a spin allocation, we’ll set it up and and then and then someday when you’re a to retire you’ll be here. Now but the problem with that theory Buck is that when I asked my doctors specifically, who have worked with financial planners and differ degrees capacities and I’ll say well what did they tell you that you need to have in this accumulation pile of capital wherever they’re putting it? How much do you need to have and I’m hearing at a minimum at a minimum six million more like eight to ten million, that’s what they’re being told the doctors, and these aren’t people they’re high, high extravagant they just they couldn’t have a normal doctors entitled lifestyle you know and they tell me you need 810 million dollars why because you’re gonna stack this money up we have. Oh here’s the other thing Buck is is so they’ll put you in the market markets right a lot of equities maybe some bonds and and they’ll it’s kind of like the roulette wheel and they’ll say we’ll do that while you have active income because you know you can suffer the downturns use but when you retire from active income oh we’re gonna go conservative now now we’re gonna pull your money off and we could put t-bills and maybe bonds or why? Because we can’t afford to take the risk anymore oh so that’s a good plan. So now they have the Trinity rule that says well now you have this big stack of accumulated capital and and and because we can’t because we’ve never taught you or we don’t know how to create a regular consistent predictable cash flow we’re gonna we’re gonna let you pull out usually four percent now they downgrade that from like two to three percent will let you pull that much out of your principal you shared to go along with whatever minuscule amount of cash flow we can and that’s the game plan. Well problem with that is getting to six eight ten million dollars today, it’s not impossible but it’s very, very difficult and you’re gonna sacrifice a lot of your life, a lot of your family time and working way longer than you have to trading time for dollars if that’s the goal. So the other side you know is this, we look at when we talk about cash flow first, what is gonna produce cash flow. It’s totally opposite of what the accumulation theory teaches.
Buck: One more point I would add to the accumulation theory an article I recently read pointed out I think you know in a very important way that this whole idea is based on you know what what a lot of I think a lot of professionals are told is that four percent rule. So the four percent rule is that basically you know you save this pile of money and then if you spend 4 percent per year or less that you know you won’t outlive your money right that’s the that’s fundamentally the the theory. The problem when another one of the problems here is that the data used to create the theory was accumulated between 1926 and 1976 which is I think a little outdated, I mean this is outdated. And then the other problem of that is that if you think about where we are in the world today regardless of the financial issues that occurred between that period of time there’s never been a time in history with lower interest rates and to your point later during retirement you’re these portfolios tend to go significantly towards fixed income, so bonds other things that you know are not equities and at that point you know what did those depend on was the yield on those dependent it depends on interest rates. So if you live in an environment where it’s you know you literally have negative interest rates throughout the world and we’re probably headed at forum two right if you’re relying on the 4% rule between 1926 and 76 for that data and you’re applying that to a world of negative interest rates, you may have a serious problem on your hands.
David: No absolutely right. The world and the dynamics of our really global economy have changed so much continues to change that yes if you’re using old models old data it has no relevance today. You have you have to go by totally different models today and it’s it’s contrary to how we were brought up. If you’re brought up in a family that was conservative and talked about saving money for instance and then going to a retirement period then yes you put your money into fixed income that was conservative and when interest rates were higher that worked but yeah today today the government the way the politicians are running things kicking the can down the road they’re stripping away the retirement of seniors who worked really hard and thought they were doing the right thing and you can’t do unfortunately you have to play the game. I say instead of follow the money, follow the debt.
Buck: So there’s the other model of course the next model like really that you’re talking about which is you know the cash flow model. Here’s a question for you. Now let’s say because people talk about this to me sometimes and my goal is to replace my income right, my goal is to replace my income with passive income. So how much I need to do that? So now it becomes an activity of sort of working your you know doing the math backwards there and if you say you make a half million dollars a year and you actually want to replace that with a half million dollars a year and you’re getting say an average all in above 8% cash-on-cash, you’re still talking about 6 million something bucks right? I mean in that case though in theory it just never goes away so it’s not like you’re just waiting for stuff to run out, but is that the way you see it or you know one of the things that I talk about is you know velocity but how do you approach this with people who ask you that question?
David: Well you know I mean you’re right the first thing you do is you look at what’s the income run rate that they want to replace basically means what’s their lifestyle and I talked about just today look look you can you can prognosticate all day long about what inflation is gonna do and I believe we’re gonna have to have inflation but let’s just talk about what do you need today to replace if you weren’t gonna do anything else trading time for dollars what do you need. So that’s that’s the first benchmark and what a lot of people think is well I asked that question they think well David’s asking me really what’s that that top-line number and I need to put a lot of margin in to cover this and this and this and this and what if I said no don’t do that start with get that number down as relatively low as you can I don’t mean living an austere life but get it down low because I call it in freedom patterns the freedom number. When the freedom number is in a relative basis not stacked way up to 500 thousand a year then we then you can hit freedom much earlier and when you hit financial freedom then the other freedoms come into place very very quickly and if you’re anybody at all who thinks differently and you’re not ever looking at retirement as your game plan then your ability to take real freedom when you’re not you know chair side doing surgery the things we’re taught to do when you create some space in your life and you’ve got a brain that lets you explore the things that your run rate and the capital cash flow that you can achieve in and develop will expand. Look, it happened for me and I didn’t even realize it was gonna happen that way it happened for me. I’m sure it happened for you when you separate yourself from active income doing the surgery that you well can do and did, I’m sure you had a certain number you want to hit, but I’ll bet you that your number has increased because why because you’re focusing on the capital assets it continues derive this number and you know it goes further and further. So I wouldn’t start with you know that big big number that you think you got to have that’s gonna last years for 25 years because it’s gonna grow with you if you invest it right.
Buck: Yeah I think you’re right and you know in my case everything you said is true. You know I started would think a need a number and at this point you know I do a lot better than I ever did with the knife in my hand. But what I’ll tell you is that one of the things that sort of sneaks up and it was an aha moment for me as you mentioned before not only are you getting you know you focus on cash flow, but I tend to focus on the cash flow but as much on that as I do the the asset itself because what’s really been I think a big turbocharger to that you know to the numbers is when you have a liquidity event and then you convert that again to a bigger asset with more cash flow you know that kind of thing. So I talk about that as velocity and basically the idea being like how quickly can i deploy capital. And you know most people just think of it in a very linear sense is I get this money in my pocket from my paycheck I can put that much in and that’s gone forever in a retirement fund and to me it’s like how quickly can I keep getting it back in my pocket and deploying it out again. And that certainly has helped to accelerate things.
David: Yeah when you’re in an estate building mode you’re you’re wanting to create more wealth through the right assets, capital assets, then yes velocity definitely plays a big part to that part of that and you’re right so we talk about difference of buckets of money and which ones to work harder that velocity part and and and that takes more intention and takes a little bit more active involvement not necessarily doing the work yourself is as you and I both do we find other people the right people I thought that the jockey on a horse. The jockey is the operator the deal sponsor those things have to fit together very, very well. But yes when you can deploy capital to other people and the right assets where you have that velocity then yes that’s you know again it’s gotta be risk adjusted. We’re different parts of the market cycle. It’s not just throwing money at the wall and saying it’s all good. But being very discerning about that yes. When you get to a certain run rate you still may want a certain proportion of your capital to have the velocity because you cuz either you like it you’re in the game it’s fun and how much you wanna be involved with that some people think that’s work I think it’s fun I’m sure you think it’s fun but still you wanna have time for your family so if you start amassing a larger amount of capital then the velocity is not so important now it’s more safety you know I think so it’s breaking it up into tranches I think is what works.
Buck: Ses I use this equation I talk about say wealth equals you know mass times velocity times the leverage right and and I think it tends to work really well. Then the key though is what you pointed out the math works. I am a hundred percent sure the math works because I’ve seen it over and over and over again. But the key is like you said that it’s a matter of people the jockey, because one of the questions I get Dave and I bet you do too, is what about these platforms and I you know Yield Street or this that and the other and I’m not saying bad about them but to me those aren’t jockeys that’s tech those aren’t people and when those aren’t people that you can kick the tires on and and understand who they are you really got to get the people right and I think you and I both talked about the network heating the you know equivalents to a net worth and you know that is a is a huge aspect of this whole equation.
David: Yeah the people part is essential and every time we reach a point in the market cycle like we are now where credit’s wide open there’s a lot of liquidity created by the Fed. There’s dollars chasing yield everywhere then raising capital if you were a capital raiser and you’ve got any kind of deals then it’s relatively easy. So you can have money pouring at you or anything and that’s where I think investors have got to be even more prudent. When the markets you know after you come out of recession then like you know almost anything you do if you have any basis at all but understanding you’re probably gonna make money we’re at a point the market now where we’re no that’s not the case and eventually this thing tops out and that’s where we’ll see where the tide tide goes out and those who are running naked will be exposed so to speak you know it’s that’s what happens.
Buck: Yeah so let me ask you this because I think there is a lot of concern about the markets and I couldn’t agree with you more. I think there’s a there’s a situation out there right now that I think also is potentially dangerous. There’s a lot of people getting into the you know just the general syndication game right if you listen to any podcast or whatever everybody’s raising capital and it’s not with any specific operator, it’s basically whoever will let them raise capital and you know there’s just a lot of dangerous stuff in the ecosystem. So the question is, and again like when you like you said if you did this back in 2012-2013 you would look like a genius no matter what right, but now it’s different and the question is how do you handle it? And you wrote a Facebook post that it was long but it was very thoughtful I’m wondering if you can kind of kind of talk a little bit about some of the main points about how to potentially look you know how to approach an economy like this.
David: Yeah you know it’s about the general economy which certainly pertains to both your personal economy which could be your your business your personal life your personal budget lifestyle and I think I started out I don’t have in front of me but I think I started out with with number one this is a time in the marketplace where instead of continuing to grow expand lifestyle, and I’m not saying not to expand business look I’m all for capitalism and in expanding the right way but the key is the right way, the right time and I think you know there’s a lot of exuberance in the marketplace today. People who even went through the last downturn have forgotten many times and it’s almost it’s almost like when you start falling the majority you just sort to believe what other people say that may have not a basis for that understanding so you just kind of get in that mode of it’s okay if our lifestyle goes well it’s okay if we extend a limb or credit and buy some stuff on credit because you know it’s all good it’s all good and business is good and our investments are good and it just feels really good and that’s actually a time when I think right now would be smart for people to get like all we need lean and mean. So just means cutting out the excess stuff that you don’t need in your personal life in your business because what are we really needed when there’s a downturn or reset, well we need margin we need cash flow margin a big time that’s the blood line that feeds everything. And when we have a recent or downturn the credit market sees up and and so there’s access to wide open credit day lines of credit he locks credit card with you got a decent job in a credit score yeah it’s wide open again like it was ten years ago, that shuts down and then your business or even your cash flows from something your investments may not be hitting the mark that they are today, doesn’t mean you’ve lost money it just means yield compression takes it down. Well yield compression will happen in a business too you’ve got to be able to ride through the gap narrows during that time which will be you know give or take 18-24 months to come out where the other side where there’s I got start breathing it a little bit again people start spending money or or or buying things again so that that’s the that’s one of key things. I talked about about debt which which also what kind of debt do you have? Do you have debt the debt that’s up short-term variable rate cullable a type of debt that again can take people down or do you have long-term fixed-rate debt on good businesses good investments in in equities if that’s what you’re doing that that you just ride through you don’t have to be a net seller it’s people that have to be a net seller during a downturn because they they have colville loans they have two-inch leverage and all of a sudden they have they have to create liquidity because the banks are calling loans not because they’re defaulted they defaulted but they actually because the banks need capital they have capital calls and who do they go to they go to their best borrowers why because the best borrowers have some assets they know they will liquidate that’s you and me and other people who have worked really hard to do the right thing don’t buy into that right you’ve got to be careful about the kind of debt that you’re holding and and it starts to either paying some off or securing the short-term debt long term fix it now’s the time to do that stuff. Those were a couple of two key things I think I talked about. You remember anything else that I’d thrown out?
Buck: I remember there’s a lot of wisdom in there but let me ask you this, so you talk about a couple things here. In the markets you know people have been talking about it is hot there’s no question and people have been talking about recessions and downturns for a while though, now it’s been at least probably four years and so that’s a lot of time not to invest and to sit on capital . How do you approach it? I mean you do time the market are you trying to time it are you trying to be more cautious?
David: Yeah I don’t you can’t time the market, it’s more I look at big, big waves. And you’re right you know I I back in 2015 before the 2016 election I honestly thought that the election would go the other way and had that occurred I do believe we would be in a much more recessionary environment right probably right now. So I was pretty I was predicting that bad scenario based on the election. So I was actually harvesting or selling certain equities back in 2015. Okay you can look now and say well if I would have kept those they would have been going up much higher yep you’re right but what I did is I took those equities and I reposition them in other assets that I know from experience are more fungible more liquid so I can be more maneuverable. I think that’s the key thing you want to be is you want to be able to maneuver. You need some some meta liquidity or cash or near cash equivalents. I think you know why still invest in equities today I’m very particular about which ones I’m focused a lot of cases on the cash flow more cash flow today because I think they’ll be to ride back up the equity game again so while there’s still equity opportunities I’m cashflow focused in what we call the capital stack of investing or financing, you know the capital stack the safest play is to be as investor isn’t a senior loan position where you own the debt right that’s that’s that’s considered very safe. Now your yields will be lower in that case and you don’t have an equity play typically unless you have convertible convertible debentures but that’s the safe place to be so you might want to position some of your portfolio in that safer part of the capital stack you’ve got inside you gotta break it up and then and then the license where you go higher up the capital stack into any preferred or common equities which is where the growth opportunities are just again know what you’re investing and know who the operator is evaluate what the potential is there and then at the same time always be calculating and you got to do this by yourself but through other people who help you understand what’s the downside risk what what are the risk adjust returns. So if in today’s market you’re investing in an equity of some type that provides a preferred return cash flow eternal say 8% and it’s projected you know internal rate of return the IRR they realized and unrealized gains down the road three five seven years out of say sixteen or eighteen percent we know there’s a lot of those out there today and and and I and I think those are viable projections if we don’t have any major downturn. Now let’s say we have go back to 2008 and things slow down credit cycles the grip markets freeze up that 16 18 percent on a risk-adjusted basis might drop down I might depending on what Bucket in tranches in I might want to reduce that in my head but it went from four to six hey if it’s really in my mind a little bit more speculative with higher returns maybe an eight percent. So I knocked that off and go am I happy with seven or eight percent in that kind of a market and if I’m happy with that and I don’t lose principle you know what thumbs up I’m good but that’s what you have to look at.
Buck: Yeah it’s in an interesting exercise I think like you know to me and in many regards I judge the performance of you know the operator currently and think about it can you cut it in half or cut it in a quarter and still be happy and in many regards I think like having the right operator you can kind of go into that and as long as you feel like very confident capital preservation at the very least you know eventually the nice thing about you know the things that we buy they’re real and eventually they’ll turn around but you just got to make sure that you’re weathering the storm and in many regards that’s kind of my personal way to approach it because again the markets are a tricky thing and as you’ve mentioned before and I agree hundred percent these are unparalleled times. You know an interesting talk that we had Dave is at our last meetup it was Dave Steele who’s one of my partner’s at Western wealth capital and he did a really interesting talk that I thought you know was compelling and something that I hadn’t thought of. He put up a slide showing the US with interest rates where they are right now and then compared it to the rest of the world and right now compared to the rest of the world our interest rates are pretty high. His thought was you know given where we’re headed right now he was suggesting that we may actually see rates go lower and potentially even negative like the rest of the world which I don’t know that it’s you know I don’t necessarily see any reason to disagree with them if you look at the macroeconomic picture and if that happens you know we’re really in a situation where that just continuously raises asset prices. So in a way you kind of have to hedge your bet right now right you have to say okay well you know if interest rates continue to go down asset prices are going to continue to go up but you know there could be something really bad happening in the economy in between that time so can I manage if that happens am I comfortable with capital preservation but the timing of the market is extremely difficult.
David: Yeah you’re absolutely right I agree hundred percent that I believe that interest rates with the macro look at the economy there’s a high potential that that’s where we’re going just if you study economics at all you can just see where we’re headed with that and you’re right that will increase asset values and so your head hedging is everything. And you said it I said it is is you’ve got to be in investments in business that can ride through that gap. So investing through other people through syndications and funds I want to know that they know they get they get it and that they are set up so they can also manage through that period of time because yes on the other side we’re fine we can get through there and we’re fine that’s the whole key is hedging and having a position that you can ride through even though you know the narrows of a market reset and make it make it through in good shape.
Buck: David there’s been really good conversation and I could keep talking to you for a long time and you know love to invite you out to our next meetup in the next six months, but in the meantime tell us about what you’re doing tell us about Freedom Founders and where we can find you.
David: Well sure freedom founders the website is www.freedomfounders.com and as you said early on that because I was a dentist I actually still in the business I’m still licensed I’m probably pretty dangerous but I’m still licensed so you know my affinity group the people I speak to or the people from once I came right not that what I do is really any different than what you do with a with a broad arrangement I guess it’s just kind of my tribe so we have primarily dentists in our group but we have some veterinarians, chiropractors, some MDS you know we don’t do anything clinical so it all fits but yeah we probably know more camaraderie in the dental arena.
Buck: You guys are smarter with money than us.
David: Who knows I mean we’re all trying to make it happen but yeah we enjoy you know our live events and and just you know a lot of teaching like you do, a lot of teaching due diligence we want informed investors. I never want to be the guy who’s like the Pied Piper and leads people I want people to understand. I have a bias I have experience in certain areas of my life. I always tell people you know I’ve got a bias here’s why I think the way I do but talk to other people because they may have a bias toward something else and you need to figure out what your pathway needs to be not what mine is or somebody else is doing.
Buck: Fantastic. Dave it’s always a pleasure thanks again for being on Wealth Formula Podcast.
David: Thank you Buck.
Buck: We’ll be right back