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163: When Bad Debt Happens to Good People with Jorge Newbery

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Buck: Welcome back to the show everyone. Today my guest on Wealth Formula Podcast is, well he’s a guy who has been on the show four times now that is a new record for Wealth Formula Podcast. The name is Jorge Newbery. He’s a friend of mine and one of my favorite entrepreneurs. You may know him best as the guy behind American Homeowner preservation initially, what is now called AHP servicing and he remains chairman of that company today. In the meantime though in true serial entrepreneur form he’s found another problem to solve and it relates to the area of bad debt. He’s gonna tell us all about it today. Jorge, welcome back to Wealth Formula Podcast.

Jorge: Hey I appreciate you having me back Buck and I’m glad to hear my guest appearances are setting a record pace.

Buck: It is record pace. There’s nobody else who’s been on four times. But you know you were there at the very beginning so even before there were listeners I don’t think you knew that there were no listeners but you came on to the show. But that ended up being a good relationship overall so…

Jorge: I agree.

Buck: Glad you could join us here a couple years later. So I want to talk about some of your new stuff here you know so in the last decade or so. You’ve really built a career based on bad debt. I mean first of all it was with AHP Servicing which is a fund that you know buys non-performing notes and now you got DebtCleanse. I mean these are all sort of in this world and of course there’s a reason for that because you’re an entrepreneur. And entrepreneurs tend to look for opportunities in whatever predicament they find themselves in and yours was of course outlined in your book Burn Zones which a number of people have read but for those of us for those who have not give us some of the Cliff Notes on that to sort of put your life in perspective that got you on this in the debt industry.

Jorge: Yeah it wasn’t what I set out to do. But in roughly on Christmas Eve 2004 I owned over 4,000 apartments across the country and an ice storm hit my largest holding which was the 1100 unit Woodland Meadows apartments in Columbus Ohio and it triggered this extraordinary sequence of events in which I lost everything and ended up 26 million dollars in debt. Now I never filed bankruptcy instead I noticed that one of my creditors made an error and I sued him and it went to court. I won they appealed and the Missouri Court of Appeals ended up issuing their decision that the creditor had inadvertently extinguished a 5.6 million dollar debt and I didn’t have to pay. Now this was a term I know is for me at the time when I was in a severe predicament it was a turning point because what I did after that I was thinking well this creditor made this type of modest error on this huge debt which extinguished it I wonder about all of my other creditors so I went back and and I found repeatedly that creditors were making mistakes small and large errors and these were done by small and large banks.

Buck So Jorge, talk about some of those errors because I’m just curious you know it piques my interest like what in the case of this you know 5 million 6 million dollar loan first of all was that was recourse debt that was not I mean you were taking all guaranteed loans for all this real estate?

Jorge: Yeah most of this was personal guarantees and that 5 point 6 million dollars was personal guaranteed and even better it was secured by a by um by an apartment building, by two apartment buildings in fact. And one of them I ended up they had to release the mortgage on it and it was a 200 and some unit apartment building in Oklahoma City.

Buck: They had to release it meaning that you were dead free?

Jorge: Yeah I actually they threatened to appeal again and so they agreed to take $225,000 which is less than five cents on the dollar on a mortgage secured by an apartment building worth millions of dollars.

Buck: That’s unbelievable. So in the case of let’s talk about some of the errors that you run into with these creditors, just as an example, because I think the story is fascinating. What in this case with the five-minute what did they do wrong?

Jorge: Okay this one’s kind of complicated but kind of fun, so follow closely. So this one when I bought this property in Oklahoma City maybe 2002 or 3 somewhere in there. And the property wasn’t as always was in disarray which is I always buy the the most challenged property. So this creditor said okay we’re gonna make you a loan and call it five million dollars on on this property we you have to get up give us security blanket the loan with another property that’s in good shape that’s cash flowing and whatnot so I said okay I’ll give you this other property in Kansas City. So they made the loan secured by a first mortgage on this property in Oklahoma City that was troubled and a second mortgage on a property in Kansas City that was cash flowing and in good shape. Now that it was a second mortgage and there was a first mortgage from Wells Fargo so there really wasn’t that much equity maybe a million dollars in equity at most in the Kansas City property. So the real equity was in Oklahoma City. Now after the Woodland meadows fiasco I ended up in trouble on all my properties and the so the lender started foreclosure on both properties at the same time and in Missouri it’s a non-judicial foreclosure which basically means that the creditor does not have to go to court and as a result that foreclosure went very very fast they also started foreclosure in Oklahoma which is a judicial foreclosure state they need to go to court it moves very very slow. So they started foreclosure in Missouri and within a couple of months they were holding the sale and I remember the sale because I sent out I sent out a representative with a ten thousand dollar cashier’s check and I thought they were gonna bid some modest amount you know maybe up to a hundred I was prepared to pay a hundred thousand dollars and they were, they showed up and so my guy starts the bidding and he goes ten thousand dollars and then the attorney for the creditor says five point six million dollars and whatever change. And so obviously that was the end of the bidding they won. But here’s the theory is that a creditor can use their debt to bid on a debt foreclosure auction but if they use all their debt that means the debt is gone.

Buck: Oh wow.

Jorge: Yeah so what they should have done is bid like a million dollars and then they’d still have four point six million dollars due on the Oklahoma City property but instead they bid the full five point six million they owned the property in Missouri so I lost that.

Buck: This was a big bank? Or was this a…

Jorge: This was a commercial credit company called Vestin mortgage. They were publicly traded at a time funny if you know them.. It’s publicly traded so they were a decent size but they just took a beating on that one I mean the court decision. So what happened is then I realized it, I didn’t realize it right away I just though dang I lost that and then that night I was running to kind of release some stress and it popped into my mind wait wait wait wait, I came across like this realization I called my attorney and said hey I think they made a mistake and he said no you’re right they did make a mistake. We went to court in Missouri and we ended up winning and then it went to the Missouri Court of Appeals.

Buck: So how did you think of that? I mean you’re not an attorney but I mean did you read something or was it like how does it make sense that they pledged money that…

Jorge: Yeah yeah that you know that happened ten times I would say that nine people would miss it and probably half the time I would miss it it just happened that I had had a similar situation maybe ten years ago I ran a mortgage company and there was the situation doesn’t come up so much with the elements that I just described but it does happen is if you use all your debt to bid on a property and there’s insurance proceeds that’s what happens very often. So let’s say if home is damaged by a fire and it’s a $20,000 loss and then the bank comes in and foreclosures and bids all their debt. Now they do that if they’ve been all their debt they are not entitled to the insurance proceeds. But if they bid all their debt minus 20000 they are entitled to the insurance proceeds and that has come up a lot in court. So that’s the situation that I had been involved in. So that’s why I remembered but I would say that most people would not recognize that but and knowing that you know over time I said you know as fast forward to DebtCleanse today you know the vision became how do we create kind of a checklist of all these potential mistakes that a creditor can make so when you run into a situation where you’re unable to pay you can kind of look to where the creditor could have made a mistake, otherwise it’s just different attorneys me you know kind of debtors coming up with random you know hey this might work and so I wanted to make it a formula.

Buck: So I think the moral of the story is and I think this is this is really powerful is if you get into trouble and you’re like oh my gosh what I’m gonna do you need to make sure that you have all the paperwork and that make sure that that’s where even the big banks the big institutions whatever make a little bit of mistake and then they you know they could end up not being able to recover money from you, right? And that’s where the moral of the story.

Jorge: Absolutely. It can be tremendous as soon as they make a mistake that can be tremendous leverage to utilize to a discounted settlement so they’ll discount their position rather than litigating the error that they made.

Buck: So I want to talk to you a little bit about your view on debt in general first of all well let me ask you before that you never filed bankruptcy why because I think a lot of people in your situation would file bankruptcy tell us exactly kind of what bankruptcy is because most people on this listening to this show are not generally people who have filed bankruptcy or have had to even think about it. But what exactly is bankruptcy and why didn’t you do that?

Jorge: Sure so bankruptcy is a court function, a judicial process which you can relieve your debts and relieve is kind of a broad term. There’s multiple different types of bankruptcies one would be a chapter 7 which not everyone will qualify for generally if you have limited or no assets limited or no income you can qualify for chapter 7 which allows you to completely extinguish your debts through as you go through the process at the end of the bankruptcy process all your debts are gone. Now if they’re secured by a car or more a home those are things that will not typically be discharged in bankruptcy and so when you have a house or a car and you have any kind of significant income or assets then you’re oftentimes end up doing a chapter 13. The chapter 13 is a monthly payment plan generally doesn’t work out that well for the people who file instead it works out pretty well for the bankruptcy attorneys because they usually get paid first before anybody and what happens so many times is that some of those aside okay I’m filing a chapter 13 they will pay the fees and then over time they’ll follow up that will be unable to make the payments complete the plan and make the payments to the creditors. In fact over 66% of bankruptcy chapter 13 filings are not completed that means that people don’t complete making the payments and so now they’re even worse off because now they are they paid you know several thousand dollars to an attorney and court costs to file this bankruptcy and the other back to where they are all the creditors is are do what they were doing before plus additional late fees and court costs and all that so I’m not a big advocate. There’s one more just let you know chapter eleven is a business bankruptcy but again at business bankruptcy looks to be very very expensive for businesses. You have to point of Trustee on both the chapter thirteen in the chapter eleven and you know people say oh I filed bankruptcy like that’s everything goes and it’s really not it ends up sometimes opening up more problems than it’s worth and I’ll tell you you know I’ve I’ll tell you what my hesitations are you know if you have bad credit you just don’t pay up debt and it shows up in your credit it can stay on there for seven years. If you file bankruptcy it’s gonna stay on there for ten years so it’s almost fifty percent more so if you’re an entrepreneur like most your listeners are and they do kind find themselves in a predicament because something doesn’t work out in the end of filing bankruptcy they will be kind of in the credit penalty box for ten years if you don’t pay your just don’t pay stuff then you’re out for up for seven years but another thing is repeatedly if you ever have to apply for a job if you apply for a license if you are trying to get approved for some kind of government program many times they’re gonna ask you have you or any companies you’ve ever been involved with filed bankruptcy and I can rightfully say no because I never have but they rarely do they ask have you or ever your companies not pay their bills they just it’s just not a question on there.

Buck: So how did you know this though? You know how did you know not to do this because I think like the reflex most people would have is to…

Jorge: File bankruptcy.

Buck: Yeah I mean especially maybe not even the personal side but say if you’ve got a business you know I’ve talked about having a failing business recently and it did occur to my it did occur to me at one point maybe it makes sense to file a you know business so this was something that business back in Chicago and so but you said no and I think there was lots of good reason for that but even for a business not to do that how would you know how did you know that how did you know it would be better off I’m curious?

Jorge: Well I have to say it wasn’t an easy decision I actually talked to a bankruptcy attorney they prepared all the paperwork I was on my way to drive to go and sign it and I just couldn’t do it. It seemed like I was admitting failure and you know I kind of thought I’d rebound faster than I did and I just I couldn’t do it. But it ended up being the right thing I mean there were other reasons not to file bankruptcy. I had I lost I had a huge loss that I report on my Irish tax returns I had over twenty million dollar loss which I’ve been able to carry forward and use as an offset against future tax gains and my accountant at the time said if you filed bankruptcy that loss goes to zero so you have nothing so actually if you go twenty million dollars and most people have less but it’s still usually oftentimes a significant amount that’s a loss that you can offset your future income against intact it’s actually gonna most cases so that is a big asset if it’s not really listed as an asset but in many respects that is an asset bankruptcy also most entrepreneurs I think also would face this and I think you you would be in this position that if you filed bankruptcy you’re kind of making the statement that hey these are all my assets these are all my liabilities. But so many entrepreneurs have all kinds of like different interests and different businesses you know little interests here they partnered on something to invest on something and if you list all that if you forget to list something hey that’s a problem because you know misrepresenting what your assets are and so I always thought you know I still have I still was trying to hustle and get things back on track and so I did a little things going here and there and I’d have to kind of give all those up so that was another reason where III just didn’t want to do it.

Buck: So let me ask you this you through this obviously you’re very successful sort of real estate you’re basically flipping big buildings you were doing it with your own money there’s a huge amount of money that you were you know you were worth at one point when you think about it now do you have a perspective you know people talk about good debt and bad debt I certainly talk about that do you believe that there’s any kind of good debt?

Jorge: Yeah I mean when I was building my my empire I took out loans I mean I didn’t have any partners but I took out debt from banks and that was good I wanted I wanted more debt to build my portfolio and that was so it was helpful to the point at which you know I you know what the natural disaster occurred and I wasn’t able to pay everything back but if there’s debt that you can afford use for business purposes use as a means to you know improve your life circumstances certainly that can be good. But there is bad debt definitely and I would call I would call this especially on the consumer level where there’s predatory debt products that are created by Wall Street that are marketed in a predatory fashion to Americans and this would be things like payday loans just terrible for businesses merchant cash advances just terrible there are a lot of subprime auto product auto loan products where you know buy here pay here you see those buy here pay here signs of these these car Lots and although you’re buying a lot the car there and you’re paying it oftentimes those loans are packaged up and securitized and sold on Wall Street so you really think you’re paying the local dealer but really you’re paying Wall Street you know some Wall Street affiliated fund so those are and these these are products see oftentimes the rates are eighteen percent twenty percent they’re high origination fees and those things I would say are absolutely bad debt a lot of the subprime mortgage products that came out in the 90s and the 2000s bad debt and I think the list goes on. There’s a lot of bad debt type products so they take advantage of people.

Buck: Yeah and I was curious about that because obviously you were using leverage for in the way you’re supposed to it even in those situations you know there are situations where it doesn’t work out and so do you find yourself even I’m probably more I’m sure you’re at least more cautious now of feeling like you know there’s a there is sort of a level of leverage that you’re comfortable with and not wanting to do more than that.

Jorge: Well regardless of what I feel for almost a decade no one would loan me any money anyway so much of a chance to leverage anything so I’m very unlevered right now. I have very little debt personally and in my businesses very very little debt but you know that’s my credit you know funny you know that all happened 15 years ago 14 years ago and but you know it was with me some of those cards and and debts kind of dinner weird like okay this guy’s not gonna pay they weren’t charged off or report is delinquent for several years but either way at this point you know my credits they’re all gone and my credit score is you know in the well into the seven hundreds yeah an excellent credit which is really funny and I work for a company called DebtCleanse so why make me a loan today I’m not sure but some of the banks do.

Buck: Yeah and the irony there too is that you know you have the you have business you know you have a business also that people are you know they have bad debt and you don’t want them necessarily not to pay their debt to your fund either so you know there’s a conflict of interest.

Jorge: I’m kind of playing on both sides of that but here’s the thing so that’s a great point I appreciate you bringing it up. So American homeowner preservation the strategy there has always been to reach a consensual solution with the family it hasn’t been to squeeze every dime out of them you can and I think that’s where declan’s is the goal is not like with if you all have a mortgage the goal is not to get a free house I mean I actually happened to almost do that with a free apartment building but that is a rare occurrence nothing you can count on but most of the time you can find enough that you can get a good resolution which allow you to stay in the home if that’s what you want with some affordable payment maybe some reduced principal those are some of the benefits and so I think all these types of debt is to get to a solution that’s good for the both the creditor and the debtor and I think AHP does that so as a result you know people shouldn’t be AHP will give you the good deal upfront you know to litigate to get it.

Buck: So you know you’ve got this book that you wrote it’s a it’s a big book big fat book it sure is and it’s called Debt Cleanse. Obviously name the same name as your business and a link to it on the show notes and website but it’s so it’s thesis is a bit controversial you know I mean it’s really I think the central idea at the end of the day is well don’t pay right and so it sounds I think for most people who are most people who get into a little bit of trouble it sounds a little bit extreme do you want to talk a little bit about your philosophy in this I mean you talk about sort of you know wearing your poor credit on your sleeve and you know all the all this kind of stuff that I think is pretty again it’s it’s different right you don’t hear people ever talk about this but I found it fascinating could you talk a little bit about sort of your approach?

Jorge: Sure so the theory and it’s reality is that the best way to gain leverage over creditors is to stop paying you know you can’t say you call the bank and say hey I’m making my payments but in a couple of months I don’t think I’ll be able to make them anymore can you modify the loan it’s just never gonna happen and in most cases they think that the debtor is so concerned about messing up their credit that they’re going to make the payments so but when you stop paying all of a sudden okay wait wait wait it usually moves to a different Department let’s kind of work this thing out and and that is where you gain leverage and also that’s where the lenders start making mistakes they made mistakes throughout but especially once you’re behind you know they can miss deadlines they can send notices out too early too late they start making collection calls they can call you too early in the day too late in the night all those things it’s just it’s right for errors and that is that’s your opportunity. So here’s what, to step back here’s kind of the greater thesis is that if a consumer or small business owner today recognizes that at some point in the future in the next six months I’m not going to be able to keep up with all this stuff it’s much better to proactively stop paying your debts today and when you stop paying its stop paying them all as opposed to what most people do including me when I had this situation when I started running behind I didn’t have enough money to pay all my debts so each month I pay a little bit here a little bit there and kind of trying to keep keep them all like at bay hoping that they don’t sue me but what that did it just took the resources that I did have the money that I had then and it kind of spread it out and and made me weaker and weaker and weaker and eventually I was at the point where I was I financially collapsed and I had no money to pay anybody and now I didn’t have no money to pay attorneys to settle debts at discounts I just couldn’t do anything so I urge your listeners if they feel that they or a friend or family member business owner they know is in that predicament is to proactively stop paying set the money that you have aside now you have money to pay attorneys who can help and you also have money to settle the debt set of discounts if if it even when it makes sense for for you.

Buck: Right yeah and it’s totally an eye opener I think because I don’t think that again most people first of all I think people most of the time when they get into trouble you know they have no idea what to do and if they do something it’s usually you know some sort of bankruptcy or something like that but it is a really interesting. I guess, lesson learned that you’ve kind of shared. So talk a little bit about the business DebtCleanse so how do you how do you work?

Jorge: Sure so I’m gonna step back just a moment just a minute as to where DebtCleanse it started and because when I started AHP I kind of knew the concepts and I applied them as I as I built  AHP but we would buy pools of mortgages from banks and then go to those homeowners and say hey we bought your loan at a discount we wouldn’t say that but we said hey we can offer you a discounted settlement you know you could reduce your payment reduce your principal settle and settle your delinquency for a big discount so we would help people and then they were their friends and family they tell their friends and family hey I got this great deal on my mortgage and they call us and say hey AHP can you buy my mortgage too? And I certainly understand that but I don’t own your mortgage so I can’t help you so we felt kind of bad a little bit like kind of we wish you could help these people so I came up with a few bullet points is what to do if you can’t afford your mortgage these are a few steps that you can take in order to maximize the likelihood that at one point your loan is sold to a debt buyer not necessarily AHP but somebody at a discount and they can share that discount with you so that was the Sirian one of the big step one is to just stop paying if they hadn’t already paid most of them had already stopped paying so we did that and but then we got a lot of requests then some of you said what about my student loan I says I finally decided to write a book which is DebtCleanse: how to settle your unaffordable debts for pennies on the dollar and not pay some at all. And in it there’s a step-by-step process for each type of debt be it a student loan a payday loan a mortgage a vehicle loan ik a business loan all types of debt credit cards there’s a step-by-step process for each and so I said okay I put out the book and I thought okay this is going to address the issues of all these other people whose loans AHP does not buy but you know as soon as you solve one problem typically another one appears so on this one people started reaching out to me by email and social media and they they’d say him I’m following the steps in the book but I’ve got the point where I need an attorney and I am in Charleston South Carolina I’m in Kansas City Missouri I’m in Los Angeles California I’m in Miami Florida. And so I get these requests I’m I think yeah you know I have no idea how to help these people because when I was in trouble and I went to attorneys there were some that were helpful and there were others that were very very unhelpful they really didn’t know what they were doing and and some of them just had we’re kind of offended by the fact that I hadn’t paid I remember one attorney I went to he asked me a couple questions said hey did you sign the papers and I said yes did you get the money yes well then you kind of pay it back I say okay well if I don’t have the money to pay back that’s really unhelpful advice so it didn’t help so the vision became how do I train a network of attorneys across our country in every state and so and then it create a platform to connect debtors consumers and small business owners who are struggling with their debts with these attorneys that are now empowered with these strategies and so that’s basically what declan’s group Legal Services is we’ve created a platform where consumers and small business owners who cannot afford their debts I can connect with this network of attorneys and they get a few things every month. You know the charge is $29 a month for consumers $49 a month for small business owners and they get half an hour consultation each month with an attorney licensed in their state they get a 10 page document review and if they engage the attorney they get a 25% discount off the attorneys rates and I’ll tell you a lot of these attorneys are working for you know a hundred hundred dollars an hour $150 an hour or $200 an hour they’re definitely one attorneys working for $50 an hour and so there’s a lot of attorneys that are working for a very affordable rates lots of times not only they applying the 25% discount but they are going even less than that on their regular rate just to attract just eight because they’re sympathetic to the cause and they want to help people.

Buck: Yeah and it’s interesting too we were talking a little bit offline about this you know from the perspective of what you know what you’re trying to accomplish here you know going to a five or $600 an hour attorney versus $100 an hour attorney really doesn’t get you five times the talent right I mean you most of the time you end up with somebody who’s probably not interested or used to dealing with you know debt types of issues unless it’s a big corporate debt issue and they just end up charging you a whole lot more but what you’ve created I think is interesting is that you’re the one who’s really I mean you’re not an attorney but you’re really you’ve studied this stuff so much that you’re actually going to you’re teaching these people all the nuances because you’ve kind of been you know in that fistfight before you know all the you know all what’s going on and a lot of these attorneys even if they’re you know super expensive high-powered quote-unquote high-powered attorneys they’ve not they only know it at a theoretical level.

Jorge: Absolutely agreed. The strategies that we share are not taught in law school in fact yeah it’s almost like street fights and so these these really well-heeled attorneys are not good as street fights in fact lots of times they’re the ones representing the banks and when you’re these little needle ‘some you know a turret attorney and consumer that our small business owner who’s kind of kicking it they’re at their feet and finding their problems and calling them on them it really becomes you become a nuisance and I mean let me share a statistic in in this country for every hundred credit card lawsuits that are filed ninety three of the people that are the defendants will not even answer the lawsuit they really think that they they know they got the money they know they use the credit card and so they just think there’s no way that I got a win in court and say let it go to default and then you know a couple weeks couple months later they’re getting their wages garnished their bank can levy but any properties being lien and but the 7% the people that answer the lawsuits and especially with our methods that then they find any problems with the creditor made they’re getting calls at some point the the creditor their attorneys calling the declan’s attorneys saying hey you know what does your client want let’s make a deal and and that is really the you know it it it’s it really is the way to gain leverage by being the exception think about it you’re having these these debts just go down this kind of conveyor belt of through the process but once they they connect with Declan the declan’s attorney kind of falls off the conveyor belt and now it’s stuck and and there needs to be some kind of customized resolution and that’s what we forced it becomes costly for the bank or the creditor to fight it and and it makes sense for them just to make a deal.

Buck: So with regard to credit cards and I know again reading your reading you know some of your book I was kind of amazed at you know I think the I think you said somewhere like it was the average settlement on a credit card default is some it was like seven or eight cents on the dollar or was it let maybe four cents on the dollar or something like that well what is it.

Jorge: Yeah I know you’re right it’s a federal federal trade commission study which studied debt buyers and the average credit card debt sold for four cents on the dollar or cents on the dollar and when you guys are doing this is when you guys have your DebtCleanse attorneys or is that kind of what you’re seeing here using a little bit more than that because you’re actually trying to settle it as opposed to something that’s defaulted and you know can’t be recovered anyway yeah so we’re definitely seeing settlements that are larger than that but they’re not you know we’re trying to get on credit cards you know if we can find problems it can be in the 10 20 cent range and so really severe discount now you know one thing that it takes patience to get to get numbers like that they’re not gonna happen in like in the first six months or a year it’s sometimes it has to go from and I think that’s where the four cents number comes from lots of times you know you don’t pay American Express they sell it to a debt buy or assign it to a collection agency and then you know they’ll try for six months or a year then it’s sold and they’ll try for six months or a year then it’s sold again and each time it’s sold it gets sold for progressively lower and lower and so eventually there’s a point at which a you may never pay it or you go set up for some massive discount.

Buck: Right well you know what the last thing I want to point out is that you know these issues are not just affecting people who are you know poor it’s affecting people with money people are more affluent they get into trouble and if they you know if they can’t get out of it, it could take them down completely right everything else they have because of one mistake or one one type of situation. When you have in terms of your DebtCleanse business what kind of clientele are you seeing are you seeing primary you know sort of are you seeing a mix of demographics?

Jorge: Yeah absolutely it’s a mix of demographics all income levels I mean the ones people who have very limited means very limited assets I mean they may be better off filing a chapter 7 and so that may not be this may not be the ideal situation but as soon as you move up the pay rung or the income and an asset ladder and for instance someone who would couldn’t file a chapter 7 but we need to file a chapter 13 absolutely in my mind declan’s is a better solution for that person that’s in trouble with their debt and and on up the income levels I mean what surprised me a little bit in the early couple of months of declan’s is how many small business owners were getting and these are people who are coming to us and hey I have millions of dollars in debt and I say wow this is um I didn’t know I mean I knew their people out there there are trouble with debt but it’s been a hire small business owners and entrepreneurs who are in trouble with with large size debts but a lot of them are ending up ending up here.

Buck: Yeah that’s fantastic. So the site is it DebtCleanse.com?.

Jorge: That’s it DebtCleanse.com and the book DebtCleanse if you’re looking for some summer reading of course Jorge also wrote Burn Zones which probably a lot of people are listening those podcasts have read which outlines is his you know his whole rise and and ultimately the you know the fall that he described in in multifamily real estate. But where can we get the deck lens book I mean sure it’s a deck Facebook is on Amazon it’s on audible you can buy it at Walmart you can buy it at Barnes & Noble so it’s actually available on a number of different outlets it’s on Apple so any of those outlets I urge you to pick up a copy it especially whether if you’re a debt absolutely if you have a friend or family member or someone you know that’s in debt I think it’s a great gift.

Buck: Yeah absolutely and I think that’s a good point because again a lot of people here going well I’m not on debt but this is an interesting conversation a lot of people around you guarantee you’re gonna have people around you who will get into some trouble and it might be worth mentioning this because these are some really unique strategies that I think we’re pretty eye-opening and frankly just financially just fascinating to me so anyway Jorge I want to thank you again for making it number four and I’m sure we’ll have you on soon probably for the newest business.

Jorge: Absolutely I appreciate that buck and I wish you well with your podcast it’s great to see how much it’s grown kudos on your success.

Buck: Thanks Jorge, we’ll be right back.