Catch the full episode: https://www.wealthformula.com/podcast/292-dave-liu-on-using-psychology-to-hack-life-for-success-and-wealth/
Buck: Welcome back to the show, everyone. Today. My guest on Wealth Formula podcast is Dave Liu. Dave is an advisor, author, entrepreneur, investor and philanthropist. He is a 30 year veteran from Wall Street and Silicon Valley. He’s raised over 15 billion for hundreds of companies, created multiple startups and had multiple billion dollar exits. And he’s also the author of The Way of the Wall Street Warrior, Conquer the Corporate Game using tips, tricks and smart Cuts, which is released in November. Dave, welcome to Wealth Formula Podcast.
Dave: Thanks so much for having me.
Buck: There’s so much we could talk about given your background, but I want to talk a little bit about some of the topics in the book. One of the things that you talk about in there is the idea of mastering human psychology to help entrepreneurs and investors. I think this is an area that I think is really vastly underrated. I know for myself as an investor that so much about the success I have has been psychology based, whether it’s my own intuition about who’s involved and that kind of thing or just trying to figure out what kind of opportunity you can get. But I’m curious. Tell us about your experience with this and about the mastery of human psychology to optimize that.
Dave: Yeah, my educational background was that I started my undergraduate by studying economics. And I also study engineering. But I study classical economics, where a lot of the theories are, frankly, based upon the idea that people are perfect agents and that they’re completely rational and that we are intended by the same things across the board. And the reality is that that’s not true. We’re all incentivized by different things. And I’ve been fascinated by this whole field of behavioral economics and cognitive bias and the intersection with human psychology that ultimately determined over the last couple of decades that people are, frankly, highly irrational, that they are motivated by different things. And as I started to spend time in my limited free time studying this whole field, it really helped me validate some of the things that worked for me in my career, as well as help shape my thinking around how to interact in the corporate world. And one simple example is that the notion of risk aversion is now very well known. We’re very well established that as a human species, we hate to lose a lot more than we love to win. And it really explains a lot of different business models, interactions, behaviors of human beings, everything from why lotteries exist to why we spend a lot of money on insurance. And frankly, why insurance and insurance companies are some of the best businesses in the world. Why, for many of us, we are really afraid to make investments when, frankly, maybe our balance sheet looks pretty healthy. It’s because losing a dollar for a lot of people is a lot more painful than winning $2. And so I started to really dissect a lot of this. And what I learned from reading all the books in this area was that there was just a ton of research into how the human being can be dissected into multiple cognitive biases, multiple traits and motivations and incentives. But what I identified was there’s kind of a gap in the market in that if you know, people are risk averse, if you know, people have affinity bias, if you know there is recency bias, how do you then use that to advance your career? How do you use that to formulate your investment hypotheses? How do you make that actionable? And so that was a gap that, frankly, I saw in the market when I started to think about, how can I best advise my sons, people that are looking to advance their career? How do I help them figure out how to realize their full potential? And what I also determined was that a lot of people, in my view, are not able to maximize their career in particular, because they don’t understand the psychology of human beings. They don’t understand that just working hard and delivering value, say to your boss or to your company, is not enough because your boss is fundamentally human and fundamentally motivated by not just seeing value in you, but perhaps other things that you’re not factoring into so that was largely the reason why I started to write down all of these different tips and tricks. And if you have a chance to kind of read through my book, the way I dish out advice is actually quite structured. I don’t personally believe that anyone can walk in another person’s shoes because I think we are essentially an aggregation of all our unique experiences. And so the way that I try to educate people is, I’ll tell you what I did. I tell you what I did to make an impression with a client, how I think about getting promoted, how I think about negotiating compensation, and I tell you what I did. Then I interview a few other people that are very successful, and they echo what they did, and they either did something similar to me or they did something different. And then last, but not least, I tried to explain in human psychology terms like why that tactic actually works. What is it about it that I did or people that I interviewed? What is it about that tactic that is validated by the fact that human behaviors act? I rationally and humans do certain things. So that’s kind of how I structured the content in my book. And a lot of what I talk about is applicable, not just in an area where say, you’re climbing the corporate ladder, but where you’re an entrepreneur and you’re trying to figure out how to raise capital or you’re a corporate executive trying to figure out how to sell your company. A lot of the same rules apply. And that’s fundamentally why I decided to write it all down and record it for posterity.
Buck: So if you’re an entrepreneur, just as an example, give us an example of how you can determine, say, a customer or an investor or an employee’s motivation.
Dave: Yeah. So one of the key ways to determine someone’s motivation, and I don’t think, frankly, people do this a lot is by pure observation and testing. So, for instance, when I was an M. A. Banker, I was an MNO banker for almost 30 years. One of the reasons why people hired me was that I would have unique insight into not only generally what companies would do if approached with an opportunity. Let’s say you’re an entrepreneur and you’re trying to sell your company and you want to know how will Google react versus Microsoft, right. Not only did I have kind of the basics of, like, general negotiation tactics, general auction tactics, but I would have unique insight into how specific buyers would react because every company is. And I’m going to say the obvious. But every company is an aggregation of people, and those people are different. And so some companies may react to a certain type of tactic, whereas others won’t. And the only way you can really discern that ultimately, what are the motivations of the various companies, which, again, are aggregations of a lot of different people with different motivations. The only way you can really discern that is through observation and through testing. And the way you test it is, you show them lots of opportunities. You have lots of dialogue. For instance, you might realize that this big tech company that we’re trying to figure out what they’re motivated by, they seem to be really motivated by FOMO or fear of missing out. And so for them, the way that you kind of get them engaged is you give them a sense either explicitly or implicitly, that there’s a lot of other people looking at this opportunity. And if that tends to be what they’re motivated by, then you start to build incentives into your strategy with them so that you exploit their FOMO. There are others that maybe I’ve been interacting with on prior deals or prior opportunities where I realize, you know what, they as an organization, are very confident in their ability to crush anybody else. And so FOMO doesn’t really work on them. But perhaps they are a very vain organization. Maybe they’re motivated by PR and the press release newsworthiness of transactions, because that tends to be the type of people who buy their stock, that tends to be the personality of the CEO. And so for them, maybe the tactic is more along the lines of I need to incent them to act by giving them a sense that this is a chest beating cover of the Wall Street Journal type of transaction opportunity. And so to answer your question, coming full circle, the way that you discern what motivates an individual, the way you discern what motivates a company is by a combination of observation. So seeing, observing your prey, if you will, trying to figure out what is it that they’re really motivated by and then testing that, testing that hypothesis, ideally with opportunities. And so if it’s your boss right, you have a lot of interaction with your boss, and you can kind of figure out pretty quickly. Okay. My boss is solely motivated by his or her ability to get promoted, and therefore what I need to do to make sure that I am successful is I need to do whatever it takes to get my boss promoted. And that’s what’s going to help me in my career. Or you might realize through working with them or through coffees and through maybe some more casual setting, that my boss isn’t really motivated by money or promotion, but they’re really motivated by a desire to leave a mark. And so maybe my role as a subordinate of theirs is to really help them build legacy, help them build some new project within the company that they can put their stamp on and say, Look, I built that division, I built that product, or I built that service. So a lot of it just comes down to observation. But then testing that observation quickly
Buck: It seems to me I’ve always found this to be the case is that what you’re really talking about when you’re talking about finding people’s motivations is the fundamentals behind marketing, right? It’s all marketing, like what drives somebody. And typically what drives somebody is greed, fear of missing out and then entertainment. There’s these things that drive people. And fundamentally, in marketing, that’s kind of what we do. I consider myself a little bit of a marketer as well. And so really, in many ways, the best skill set that a person can have for success, whether it’s an entrepreneur as an employee or whatever, is the ability to market themselves. Right? Essentially, use psychology to do that no matter what, whether it’s in business or entrepreneurship, raising capital, even relationships, personal relationships. It’s all fundamentally that’s probably the most important skill in terms of getting what you want out of life. Do you think that’s true?
Dave: I do. But let me add another layer or another level of dimensionality to it. So I’m generally not a big fan of frameworks because I think frameworks are essentially ways that we make sense of the world, and they tend to devolve to the lowest common denominator. When you think about frameworks, a lot of them are part of books that people write in order to sell as many books as possible, and therefore for it to ultimately be helpful to as many people as possible, you have to generalize them. But the reality is we’re all very different. I like to joke, for instance, that I have two siblings, two brothers. And if you looked at us on paper, we look the same, right? We have the same parents. We’re three Asian American male, grew up in Asia, born in the US, grew up in Asia, but lived in the United States. Right. And what traditional textbook frameworks would tell you is that you manage the three of us exactly the same. You market to us exactly the same. And I’ll tell you that’s completely wrong. The three of us are motivated by completely different things. But again, frameworks will tell you that you should approach it the same way. Now, that being said, there is a framework that I think is really helpful when you are thinking about your career. And I think this can also apply if you’re an entrepreneur starting a company. And this framework is the Japanese framework, the Ikigai framework. And if you’re familiar at all with it, it really is about answering four key questions. When you’re determining what you want to invest your life in what you want to start a company in. And it starts with the very cliche but helpful question of, like, what are you passionate about? What do you care about? Right? That’s number one, number two is what are you good at? If you’re being somewhat objective, what can you be good or great at? Number three is what does society value? And the number four is what is society willing to pay for? And so if you think of these four as kind of concentric circles. And you draw, like a Venn diagram where they overlap is really the kernel of a lucrative career. It’s the kernel of a lucrative company, because if you’re passionate about something, you’re good at it. Society values it, and society will pay for it. That ends up being a really interesting Quadrant that ends up being an area where you’ll go the extra mile because you love it. Right? You’re good at it. So you’re one of the people in the world that people go, yeah. If I could work with anybody, I’m going to work with Dave because he’s actually good at this thing or his company’s good at it, right? Society values it. Society actually cares. And last, but not least, society will actually pay for it because there’s a lot of things society values. But for whatever reason, society is not paying for it. Right. So I think of that as the kernel or the framework that helps an individual think about, where do I invest my time career wise. And I advise a lot of younger people to not cut corners and not make sacrifices too early. But try to experiment to find that intersection for yourself earlier in your career. Right? Yeah. And so as you think about your career, unless you are a solitary writer in some cabin in the Woods, you have to work with people. You have to work with, a boss, you might have people reporting to you. You might be part of a company. That company might have customers. That company might need to raise financing from other people. That company may have partners. And so what I recommend people think about is at any given moment, what is the Ikigai framework for the people around you? What is the Ikigai framework for your boss? What is it for the people that work for you? What is it for your investors? What is it for your suppliers? What is it for anyone that is related to your overall mission? And unfortunately, the questions or the answers to those questions change over time. And I think that that’s actually where you can get caught if you’re not paying attention to it, because perhaps when you’re earlier career in that framework, what you care most about is getting paid, right. So you’re like, look, I don’t really care if I’m that passionate about it, but I’m good at it. And society pays a lot of money for it. So we’re going to do that, right. But maybe over time, as you salt away more of the truth of your labor, you may say, you know what? Money isn’t as important to me, but more passion and purpose is a lot more important. And so I think figuring that out for the people around you is really critical. And then marketing is really the tool to help you achieve your magic Quadrant and get everybody else to help you realize that Quadrant. So a little bit of more of a framework philosophical addition to what you were just saying.
Buck: Right. And so that brings me to, I think, a topic that I find myself talking to. A lot of this show. There’s a lot of physicians and dentists and a lot of people who are also kind of burned out, just working long hours and starting to tinker with the idea of doing something on their own, being an entrepreneur. And I’m often kind of confronted with the question of like, should I do this? And should I do something different? And I spent so much time in my life working on this and going to school for something. And I want to do something different. I’m curious. You mentioned you talked to a lot of young people about this, but I think, especially as we continue to live longer and longer, it sure seems like probably more people should consider making pivots later in their life into things that they’re more interested in. How do you approach somebody who asks you, hey, Dave, I’ve been a doctor for 20 years and burned out. And I’ve got this idea, should I do it? So how do you evaluate that situation?
Dave: I tell them what I did because effectively, I exited stage right from Wall Street in my early 40s. And if you kind of go back to that Ikigai framework that I talked about for me, the 20s and 30s were squarely focused on salting away as much capital as possible, so that when I got to my 40s and 50s, I could essentially do whatever I want. And what I learned over time was that the things that motivated me when I was younger no longer motivated me when I was older, which is very similar to I think what a lot of your friends are asking you, particularly the doctors that are burnt out, burnt out is a classic sign of the fact that your Ikigai framework is out of sync. Right? Most of the time is that you’re just not as passionate about it anymore. But maybe it’s also that society doesn’t value as much what you’re doing and that robs you of something at your core, right? It’s like, well, this isn’t necessarily something that it may have started off as a very Noble profession, but maybe now people don’t really view it as Noble, and therefore it reduces my motivation. And so what I tell people when they come to me with these questions of burnout, and should I do something else? I say, look, I think the first thing you need to think about is what is your personal cost of capital? What minimum nest egg do you need so that you don’t have to go back to the days when you’re in your 20s and 30s and slaving away and worrying about every paycheck? Because what I find is that constraints are good. But if you are at risk of devolving into a situation where you’re worried about having enough food on the table. Right. Then you may actually be incentive into the wrong kind of behavior. And an extreme example is when good people do bad things, when good people do unethical things or illegal things in order to get ahead. And so what I tell people is, look, if you want to make the transition change in your career, I think the first thing you need to think about is what is the minimum nest egg you need? And therefore what is the minimum cost of capital that you have in order to continue your lifestyle at a level you’re comfortable with. And for some people, in order to make the jump, they actually have to downscale their lifestyle in order to make sure that they don’t end up in a situation where they’re burning through their savings. They’re worried about putting food on the table, but they’re able to have at least the degrees of freedom to explore something else. And so first and foremost, I tell people make sure that you do no harm using the medical brain. Do no harm. Figure out what your financial situation is, particularly if you have a family, your cost of capital is higher and make sure that that’s covered. Then I think that life is really short, right? If you’re burnt out and you don’t feel that you have meaning, I think you can do one of two things. One is you could start to do this new thing as a side hustle, right. And I’m not sure that is completely practical if you’re a doctor or a dentist, but perhaps the weekends or shifting to a little bit more of a part time partnership role is an option. But you can start as a side hustle. If you’re not completely confident that this thing could turn into something big or just go all in. And if you’ve done the homework, like I said earlier, where you’ve made sure that you’ve salted away enough money, you made sure that whatever returns you can get off your portfolio or your nest egg are sufficient to cover your cost of capital, then I recommend people go all in because what I find in entrepreneurship is that rarely are you successful unless you give it your all because the mortality rate is so high. And if it’s an idea worth pursuing, the odds are quite high that either you have competition already or you will have competition nipping at your heels pretty quickly. And therefore the way you win is by speed. The way you win is by focus. And so if you’re interested in doing something else, I recommend people just go all in. And that’s frankly, what I did when I decided to just leave Wall Street, leave investment banking and then become an entrepreneur.
Buck: Yeah, it has to be clean, and you have to have a mindset of making that switch. When I left, actually practicing medicine. I have private practice and it converted it into a business that runs without me now. But my manager at the time did not believe I was going to stop practicing. And I literally wrote a letter of resignation to my own manager. I own the practice and put a date on it after this date. I’m not practicing. So I just declared it to her. I declared it to myself and it was done, and I stuck to it. And it’s a scary thing, right? I mean, it’s like you definitely have once you actually get there and you do it, especially if you succeed. It’s got great rewards often as well. Pivoting to your you’ve got this other side where you’ve been an investor and you’ve been very successful there. You’ve invested in a number of businesses. So when you think about your successes and what’s made them successful, what do successful investors consider before funding a company or a project or really anything? Or is there a formula you use or is it like people first, the usual mantra, that kind of thing, or is there something different?
Dave: So my investing style is actually quite different, and I have actually not run into anybody that does exactly what I do. You have a lot of angel investors out there that I think, frankly, spray and pray. So they invest in a lot of different companies. They put small amount of money in lots of different companies, and they effectively just become a name on a long tap table, a long list of investors, and they don’t really actively get involved in the company, and the company doesn’t really actively use them. They see them as a check, and then maybe they’ll give them an update from time to time. But ultimately, they’re not really part of the company. And what I learned or what I decided for myself is I’m not really chasing yield. I’m not really in the business of being an angel investor, but I enjoy the role that I played as a banker. I enjoyed the role of being someone that the company could call on when they have a challenge. One of the things that I am, I’m a movie buff. And one of my favorite films of all time is The Godfather and in The Godfather. The right hand man of the Godfather is Tom Hagen, which is a character played by Robert Duvallieri. The Consiglieri. And I consider myself like the Consiglieri to founders. And that’s the kind of role that I love to play. I love to be the person that the founder CEO calls when they have financing questions when they are approached by a buyer, when they are challenged with some HR issue, when they’re facing issues with their board or their investors, or, frankly, just a friend they can call on like a therapist late at night and say, Look, I got all these issues. I just need somebody to talk to that I trust. And so as I described that role, obviously, I can’t play that role for, like, 30 companies or 40 companies. Nor do I want to. So what I’ve done is I generally focus on a very small number of companies, companies who generally I have known the founder or CEO for a really long time. Some of the things that I’m involved with where I’m a shareholder, I’ve known the founders for 2030 years. I may have been their banker at one point and helped them with their first company or their second company. And what I’ve learned is that if you get to know people over a long period of time, you end up dissecting from your relationship. You really figure out their ability in two areas. One is their ability to deal with people, and that’s something that, frankly, I think only comes with experience. Both. I think your ability to deal with people I think comes more with age. And second, my ability to understand how you deal with people comes with having longevity and knowing you for a long time. And as we’ve talked about throughout this podcast, so far, the ability to deal with people is a superpower that helps you in every app facet of starting a company. And what I’ve generally found is even if you’re not good at dealing with people, those people that are self aware about that and then hire a number two quickly with someone that has that ability are also people worth backing are also people worth dealing with, because even though they may not personally not be able to deal with people, well, they recognize that’s a huge blind spot of theirs, and they fill it quickly. So first and foremost, I try to invest and partner with entrepreneurs that I’ve known for a long time because I know that they have an ability or recognize the ability to deal with other people is critical to their success. Second and again, this is something that you can really only observe over some period of time is their overall agility? So what is their ability to flex when the company runs into challenges? What is their ability to pivot when they realize that a product or service that they’ve been doing is just not taking it’s, not finding product market fit. And I think that Agility is something that is, frankly, underrated. As a society, we get a lot of our information about companies from the media and the media essentially celebrate survivorship bias. They talk about the stories where a company hit a billion dollar valuation is a unicorn, et cetera. But obviously they don’t talk about the 99% of enterprises that fail because those aren’t interesting. But what they don’t talk about so much is the weaving and bobbing of what the company did on its March towards billion dollar multi billion dollar success. And what I have found is that a lot of companies rarely do they start off and end in the same place. Rarely do they say, hey, we’re going to build a widget, and then they’re successful seven years later in an IPO because they’re building that widget they originally envisioned most of the time they’re doing something different most of the time they’re experimenting along the way, and then they find something else. So I would say that really understanding the agility of the founders and CEOs I have found to be a winning strategy. And so for me, what has worked really well is making very concentrated bets on a handful of companies where I know the entrepreneur. I’ve gotten to know them pretty well, and I’m able to discern their ability to deal with people manage people manage investors, manage customers, and then their overall agility under fire, their ability to flex and weave and Bob when the company runs into adversity, which every company runs into at some point in their life.
Buck: Yeah. So one last topic or question for you, and that is we are coming. We have lived through a pretty extraordinary period in time with COVID, and that has accompanied significant shifts in how we work and Zoom and all these different technologies. And I’m curious from an investor standpoint, what do you think the opportunities to be potentially looking for? What are you looking for right now? Post COVID? I mean, is there anything that seems to be that maybe people aren’t thinking about that you’re looking at as, hey, this is an area that post Covid is going to be potentially really exciting.
Dave: So the simple answer to your question is absolutely. But let me give you a little historical perspective on why I feel that way. So I’ve been in the tech world for about 30 years, and I’ve seen a lot. And one of the things that I’ve seen is that whenever there is a, quote, unquote platform shift, there’s tremendous wealth creation and wealth destruction. Okay. Now to make it less of a high level business school strategy and bring it down to a much more tactical level, what I see is that whenever you see a shift in media consumption and the form factor in which the way people consume that media, that tends to be an opportunity. So when you look at, for instance, going way back, the birth of the Internet, in my view, was a huge change in the way we consume media for one simple reason. It’s that, in my view, it unlocked our media viewing hours beyond just the 06:00 p.m. to, like, 10:00 p.m. At night. It actually unlocked media viewing and shopping and consumption through all hours of the day. And so it kind of unlocked all this inventory where, if you recall, in the early days of ecommerce, one of the unusual things that was happening was there was a ton of shopping happening at lunchtime, something that people have never seen before. Right. But I give you that as an example of how the birth of the Internet obviously created, like, this brand new opportunity to market to consumers that we’ve never seen before. Obviously, the next huge shift was the mobile web and the birth of mobile apps and the mobile ecosystem again, tremendous creation of wealth and destruction during that period. And you could say that the huge beneficiaries of that were Apple and Google. Because ultimately, with their operating systems, with the Google operating system and the iOS operating system, Apple, they effectively became the tax man for the entire mobile app ecosystem. Now, I think the big opportunity is actually this whole area, which is being termed Web three, but it’s the birth of decentralized organizations and MSPs and the ability to tie value a little closer to the original creator and to own that data yourself and to create a unique identifier associated with that. And I think because of that, you’re going to see a tremendous amount of wealth created. But what we don’t know is will this truly democratize the ability for creators to own their work and monetize their work, or will we see the rise platforms yet again? Will there be a Facebook, Meta or Google that will be the tax man, if you will, for the NFT and the crypto and the Web three0 economy. Nobody knows. But what I do know is when you see that shift, you will see a lot of opportunity. So what I do is I try to think about from an investor standpoint, when are the big platform shifts happening? And then when they do happen, if you’re in the business of just generating yield, so you’re in the business of chasing yield and just trying to make sure you generate return. This is actually an interesting point in time where you just invest in everything. I don’t have ability to discern whether this operator is better than that operator in the NFL world or the Dow world or the crypto world. But what I do know is that a huge platform shift is happening and there will be winners and there will be losers. But if I overall bet in the rise of this next platform, I will net do well. And when I look back at the venture capitalists and the angel investors that I know that have done tremendously well, it’s when they see these huge platform shifts and they go all in, they put all the chips on the table and they say, look, the birth of the Internet is going to be huge. I’m just going to invest in everything that has a dot com on it. The birth of the mobile Internet or mobile web and mobile app ecosystem is going to be huge. I’m just going to invest in all of the mobile plays.
Buck: So Dave, practically speaking in our group, obviously, we have predominantly accredited investors. We have opportunities that maybe your typical retail doesn’t. But how do you do that? How do you invest in everything and get exposure to everything? Especially if you’re looking at decentralized companies and stuff like that. How do you do that?
Dave: Well, it’s not easy, obviously, because there is still some separation from the good companies from the bad companies. But there are a lot of entrepreneurs and venture capital firms that are opening up their opportunities to individual accredited investors. You can go on platforms like Angel List and troll various people that have pretty much opened their platform to anybody that wants to invest. You obviously need to be careful and you need to do your due diligence. But that is one Avenue to go, the mutual fund or the ETF route. I’m not necessarily suggesting that that is a great route, but if you’re so fixated on like, I need to have an opportunity or I need to participate in this exponent. That to me, is a much better route for someone that’s not well versed in this space than going the route, for instance, that I’m going because the route I go is very surgical. It’s very pinpoint. It’s like, okay, this entrepreneur I’ve worked with 5, 10, 15 years ago and they’re all in on NFCs, and therefore I believe in this person’s ability to exploit the NFT opportunity. If you don’t have those relationships or you can’t do that kind of due diligence, then I do think if you still want to play in the category, you have to go more of the broadbased route. And the way to get in there is really to look at some of these platforms that are creating venture funds or SPFs or special purpose vehicles that are broad based and are opening their platforms up to multiple investors. But you should be very careful with that. You can still choose badly.
Buck: Yeah, absolutely. Well, great. This has been fascinating stuff. Dave. The book, again is the way of the Wall Street Warrior conquer the corporate game using tips, tricks and smart cuts. Presumably it is available everywhere in Amazon, etc. Right on the website. It’s lucrative is L-I-U-C-R-A-T-I-V-E Co. Is that correct?
Dave: Yes, that’s correct. You can also find a book on Amazon, so it’s available everywhere. But you can go to Amazon as well. And I’ll just say a couple of quick things about the book, so it’s geared towards people that are looking for just any advantage they can get to scale the corporate ladder. So I really wrote the book more for people that feel underrepresented in the workforce. So Asian Americans, African Americans, women, people that are frankly frustrated with the status quo. And then I pledged 100% of the proceeds to charity. So I really did this book as a way for me to give back to the community. So if you like the book, we appreciate obviously a good review on Amazon.
Buck: Fantastic. Dave, thanks so much for being a Wealth Formula Podcast today.
Dave: Thanks so much for having me and I enjoyed the talk.
Buck: We’ll be right back.